What would be your possible reaction........

[FULLTHRUST]

Hello All,

1. What would you do if you see any serious/abnormal stuff sitting in an aircraft cabin ready for departure?

2. What is the standard SOP for pilots in a case where some one (credibly knowledgeable) in the cabin is highlighting some thing that is not right - does their airman-ship dictates to come out in the cabin and have a look at that before departure?


This is what I had been through last week!! Detroit to Miami.

Pre-departure,

- They started #1 engine on the stand - APU kapoot - OK understandable
- #2 engine started after push back - 4th attempt, OK understandable, wet chamber, time to blow off and etc etc.
- Ailerons on both side - not neutral, understandable, air pressure would get them neutral


After Taxi;

I had a very serious confrontation with flight attendants of Delta - telling them that the ailerons (both sides) are not in the take-off config. (probably stuck), and the aircraft was taxiing and approaching holding point!! They (the cockpit crew) were jolting the control tab (both directions) and the aileron was not moving (coming back to neutral) at all.
I was literally shivering and screaming and begging them to call any of the two pilots in the cabin and let them have a look. The aircraft was MD88 (I know very well Roll channel is cable operated and there is a control tab on the aileron for its normal operation, the surfaces go neutral when the air pressure goes over them - in this case they were not!!), and I knew if it is going to take off like this and if the surface is stuck - then we all are going to die!! The aircraft will go into right roll immediately after getting airborne!!

The cockpit crew did all their procedures and did not came out until an other Delta pilot sitting in the front of me got up and ran to the flight attendant station at the aft galley and tried to get over the intercom, then that flight attendant screamed that there is something serious, please take a look, please come back!! Please!! The co-pilot came out had a look and went back!!

The flight got delayed 45 minutes on the taxi way and I dont know what did they do to bring the aileron back to neutral. I was literally scared to death.

[haroon_ek]

Firstly I would say that your presence of mind and initiative saved many lives.

Secondly, I don't know about the MD-80 or similar aircrafts, but I think modern aircrafts might have some sort of alarm system in case if anything is abnormal. In such case, say those ailerons weren't in neutral position.

Any ideas?

[Lufthansa Cargo]

First of all I would like to say thanks for paying attention to your surroundings and saving many lives by explaining what you saw. If you did not do this, the off duty pilot sitting in front of you would probably not have noticed it either. We (the airlines) apreciate having passengers like yourself on board no matter what airline you are flying with. The main thing is that by causing this comotion you have saved lives! =D> =D> =D> =D>

I would have done the same thing that is why I always request a window seat near the wings so that I can tell what is going on and I always let atleast one of the crew members know that I am an airline employee.

Id have to say the closest that I have come to almost panicking on a flight was on Kuwait Airways when i just started getting these weird vibes about the passenger sitting next to me on a flight from LHE to KWI. BTW no offense to anybody. He was an Arab, seemed kind of out of place in comparison with the rest of the passenger load. He was reading alot of religous literature ( I dont remember if it was the Quran or not) tasbee and all all throughout the flight except when he would get up and walk up and down the aisles.

I was continuosly keeping my eyes on his every movement. Meanwhile I was doing this I noticed that there was something that looked like a possible weapon strapped to his belt under his jacket. Then he went for the galleys where the FAs were preparing our inflight meals. Man I was going to jump out of my seat and go after this guy but then I noticed that he was having a nice pleasant conversation with the crew members in the galley. Having a good laugh and all talking like they knew each other very well. Thats when I told myselft (you idiot, you have nothing to worry about, the passenger next to you is an Air Marshall!)

Even though this wounded up being nothing it always pays to be paying attention on your flight. And its alot more better than being passed out drunk like what most of the gorays do!

[FULLTHRUST]

Thanks guys - I did what anybody could have done who knows whats going around!!

The modern day airliners are mostly fly by wire/semi fly by wire, that means electrically controlled and hydraulically operated. So once the engine revs up for starting, the hydraulic pressure builds up and the control surfaces go to their neutral positions.

Cockpit indications are there, and the free and full movement of every flight control surface is checked and cross checked prior to departure - 100%.

[SalamPaks]

Fullthrust,

Can you share details about the flight you were on ? Would you also consider contacting DL as what you have described, in terms of the FA response to your observations is somewhat disturbing. I believe you are an ex-PAF and PIA pilot are you not, and I am wondering if you identified yourself as such, and what the FA's response would have been?

In answer to your questions pertaining to what one would do upon seeing something alarming pertaining to the safety of the aircraft, I believe I posted to the PIA section of this forum some years ago (2004 ish) an experience I had at ORD on a KHI bound PIA 777 flight that was undergoing de-icing at the gate. I was actually in the cockpit as a guest of the captain but returned to my seat on the starboard side of the J cabin so as to not cause any distraction. Once the deicing was complete, I noted that there was still ice caked on my window and those windows in my vicinity, while there was none on the windows further back or on the port side. I called the purser and asked him if he could convey my observation to the captain. The purser said the usual "Sir, captain ko patha hoga" and left. I called him again and told him that I would feel comfortable if the captain was aware of the situation, and he eventually agreed to notify him. There was a further delay and about fifteen minutes later the deicing equipment was back, and the ice was gone. A further delay ensued as the captain decided that he wanted to observe the aircraft from the ground, so the pier had to be reconnected to the aircraft for him to disembark and return.

When I went back to the cockpit the next morning to experience the landing at Manchester, I asked the captain if my observation on the ice buildup was credible, and he responded in the affirmative, thanking me for it.

[FULLTHRUST]

Hello SalamPaks - it was a Delta flight from Detroit to Miami - afternoon of April 11, and I was going to Aviation Week MRO Americas @ Miami. I am considering raising the issue of Crew SOP in a case similar to mine and yours with FAA and Transport Canada, and not Delta. I am waiting for my "USTAAD" who is an ex-Canadian Air Force fighter pilot and a "GURU" in airline CRM and Flight/Fuel Management (Ex-Air Canada Pilot as well) to come back to Canada.

I am an ex-PIA Mx engineer, flight safety specialist (ramp and flight both) and have personally certified VVIP aircraft for shareef, BB and Mushi and a recreational pilot in Canada and have no link with PAF - currently living in Canada!! Also have spent half of my professional life (the unmarried chapter) in Karachi tower, and area control centre (radar) as well.

To my utmost surprise - FAs' response initially was very similar to your PK FAs', and she was reiterating during flight that the "cockpit crew" is at a higher level and she did not want to push the matter too hard initially on them as they often do not pay attention to FAs. IMO - It is the same case all over the world - it has to be the gravity of the matter that crew comes out of the cockpit and have a look. But I need to understand - what is the SOP in such a case????

In terms of identifying myself - I was at the very aft of the cabin maybe 2 rows ahead of where she was seated on the aft FA seat, I told her that I am a certified aircraft accident investigator registered with ISASI, OAC, AIAC and with multiple maintenance certifications and a pilots' license, having experience of heavy commercial jets for airworthiness and safety, she was very kind initially and immediately picked up the intercom and told the captain - at that point the crew was fighting fires with starting #2 engine (4th attempt successful) and did not promptly respond to FA and she sat down very calmly after talking to them - I flared up/panicked when they increased the taxi speed after 2nd engine start and were approaching holding point. That was the time the off duty pilot sitting in front of me got up and rushed to the FA station to grab the intercom. At that time FA also panicked and managed to get the first officer out of the cockpit. The point that I am making is that the ailerons were still stuck at the extreme positions and he came out had a look and went back!! I and the off duty pilot only asked him to check the free movement of the flight controls!! Thats all I and the off duty pilot wanted. That off duty pilot was not rated on MD88 and I am no expert on MD88 as well.

[SalamPaks]

To my utmost surprise - FAs' response initially was very similar to your PK FAs', and she was reiterating during flight that the "cockpit crew" is at a higher level and she did not want to push the matter too hard initially on them as they often do not pay attention to FAs. IMO - It is the same case all over the world - it has to be the gravity of the matter that crew comes out of the cockpit and have a look. But I need to understand - what is the SOP in such a case????

Thanks for the clarification. That helps tremendously. My initial concern was that the FA was outright ignoring you, but it appears that she made a good faith attempt to contact the cockpit crew and was subsequently ignored. Given that your field is aviation safety, you don't need me to tell you about the background to the tragic collision of two Boeing 747s at TFN in 1977, and how position and title played a huge role in cementing the fate of some 800 souls.

I do think it is appropriate to report the matter to the FAA so that it can be investigated and so that SOP's regarding such occurrences can be dusted off and re-learned. Great job on raising the alarm.

[SalamPaks]

First of all I would like to say thanks for paying attention to your surroundings and saving many lives by explaining what you saw. If you did not do this, the off duty pilot sitting in front of you would probably not have noticed it either. We (the airlines) apreciate having passengers like yourself on board no matter what airline you are flying with. The main thing is that by causing this comotion you have saved lives! =D> =D> =D> =D>

I would have done the same thing that is why I always request a window seat near the wings so that I can tell what is going on and I always let atleast one of the crew members know that I am an airline employee.

Id have to say the closest that I have come to almost panicking on a flight was on Kuwait Airways when i just started getting these weird vibes about the passenger sitting next to me on a flight from LHE to KWI. BTW no offense to anybody. He was an Arab, seemed kind of out of place in comparison with the rest of the passenger load. He was reading alot of religous literature ( I dont remember if it was the Quran or not) tasbee and all all throughout the flight except when he would get up and walk up and down the aisles.

I was continuosly keeping my eyes on his every movement. Meanwhile I was doing this I noticed that there was something that looked like a possible weapon strapped to his belt under his jacket. Then he went for the galleys where the FAs were preparing our inflight meals. Man I was going to jump out of my seat and go after this guy but then I noticed that he was having a nice pleasant conversation with the crew members in the galley. Having a good laugh and all talking like they knew each other very well. Thats when I told myselft (you idiot, you have nothing to worry about, the passenger next to you is an Air Marshall!)

Even though this wounded up being nothing it always pays to be paying attention on your flight. And its alot more better than being passed out drunk like what most of the gorays do!

The reasons you express for being concerned about the passenger sitting beside you are outrageous..

1) An Arab
2) Dissimilar from the majority of the passengers
3) Reading religious material

[Lufthansa Cargo]

outrageous, how about number 4: in posession of a gun. And number 5: continuosly getting up and walking up and down the aisles?

I guess that is outrageous as well.

This was my first time flying years ago right after 9-11 And my first time seeing an air marshall on a flight. I have nothing against Arabs or religous people. My familly consists of both. I have relatives, familly friends, and my father's employer which i have known all my life that live in Kuwait and are Arabs. Many friends here in the U.S. as well that are arab.

[ryanov]

I sympathize with the original poster, in that it's hard to theoretically know something and not try to take an action. I was concerned about a de-icing that took place once in that it seemed they missed much of the plane. Turned out, they stopped to do something for a minute or two and went back to it and took care of the whole area.

In this case, though, the original poster was incorrect. This is common in this type of aircraft. Odder still is that he claims to know that (mentions that on these aircraft, the control services aren't moved but rather guided by the tabs and that they will straighten out when the aircraft starts to move), but somehow does not realize that there is not sufficient movement of air over the ailerons at that speed to bring them to neutral. Note this takeoff -- I imagine that the scenario was very much the same on this aircraft:



Check out around the spool up moment -- right around 2:40 or so... the ailerons slowly drift to neutral as soon as there is sufficient movement of air. DC-9's and MD-80's and possible other aircraft are like this. It reminds me of the case with a certain Fokker aircraft that AA used to fly (F-100 I think?). Passengers complained so much about a lack of flaps and slats on takeoff (the aircraft was designed not to need them) that AA adopted a policy of flaps 8 even though it was unnecessary.

[FULLTHRUST]

I sympathize with the original poster, in that it's hard to theoretically know something and not try to take an action. I was concerned about a de-icing that took place once in that it seemed they missed much of the plane. Turned out, they stopped to do something for a minute or two and went back to it and took care of the whole area.

In this case, though, the original poster was incorrect. This is common in this type of aircraft. Odder still is that he claims to know that (mentions that on these aircraft, the control services aren't moved but rather guided by the tabs and that they will straighten out when the aircraft starts to move), but somehow does not realize that there is not sufficient movement of air over the ailerons at that speed to bring them to neutral. Note this takeoff -- I imagine that the scenario was very much the same on this aircraft:



Check out around the spool up moment -- right around 2:40 or so... the ailerons slowly drift to neutral as soon as there is sufficient movement of air. DC-9's and MD-80's and possible other aircraft are like this. It reminds me of the case with a certain Fokker aircraft that AA used to fly (F-100 I think?). Passengers complained so much about a lack of flaps and slats on takeoff (the aircraft was designed not to need them) that AA adopted a policy of flaps 8 even though it was unnecessary.

Thank you so very much for the video ryanov!! As I mentioned earlier that I am no expert on Maddogs, though having a look at the accidents database on these tail mounted engined aircraft, I always keep my cool and observe.

The question here is not the "technicals" of Maddog, but rather, a) what would you do in a situation where you as "credibly knowledgeable" passenger observe any abnormal situation, and b) is there any SOP for crew to come out and have a look before departure?

[TAILWIND]

IMO in a modern airliner the pilots will get some warning if there is some thing wrong before take off which could be potentially catestrophic. In this case if the pilots during roll control checks could move the control from limit to limit this means things are ok, and as later commented by Ryanov thats how MD88 ailerons operate. Moreover if indeed there is a situation where the controls are moving alright, there is no warning or indication in the cockpit, yet the control surface(s) are struck, as observed by Fulltrhust, the manufacturer or the FAA would have mandated the crew to physically see the control surfaces during the freemovement check. Which offcourse is not the case.
Having said that, I am a bit confused by Fullthrust's narration that on an off duty pilot's intervention. the co-pilot came out and then taxied abck to terminal for some rectification which delayed the flight for 45 mins. This means there was something wrong, or ther crew decided to have a check once a fellow pilot pointed out something wrong. Even in that case i donot think a rectification of any sort can be accomplished in 45 minutes except for a visual examination and a functional check by moving the controls????

[mspav8r]

Fullthrust -

PMFJI. This topic was posted on another message board with a link. I have taken the onerous steps necessary to register for this board to provide a response to your post.

My major points:

-- during the preflight phase, prior to flight, an external examination of the aircraft is conducted. During this inspection, the ailerons of ALL Delta Airlines MD88 aircraft are PHYSICALLY MOVED BY HAND to ensure no binding or restriction in movement. The opposite aileron is then inspected, to make sure it is in the opposite position from the other one; (i.e. one extending up, the other extending down).

-- during the taxi segment to the departure runway, a CONTROL CHECK is done, again to ensure proper freedom of movement. If no binding / restrictions are noted, the check is valid. IF there was ANY restriction of movement, it would be noticed IMMEDIATELY; since the controls are connected with a physical cable; the MD88 is not a “fly-by-wire” aircraft.

-- It is quite normal for the ailerons (& even the elevators) to be out of the neutral position on the ground. This is because the CONTROL WHEELS in the cockpit actuate a CONTROL TAB on the ailerons.....NOT THE AILERON DIRECTLY. The ailerons will become aligned with the wing once sufficient airflow is generated during the takeoff roll. This is completely normal.

-- I can only guess that the pilot that reacted to your situation had safety paramount on his mind & did not understand the true situation. (For example, an airbus pilot is used to seeing the ailerons neutral with the wing whenever there is hydraulic pressure available).

Delta pilots receive some of the best training in the world; which is very costly & time consuming. To be trained on the MD88 takes about six weeks of academics, simulator training, & flight training. When the process is finished, you have a very good knowledge about MD88 systems, procedures, etc....including all flight controls. I know, because I am an MD88 Captain for Delta Airlines.

My advice is to rely on the highly trained pilots that have an excellent working knowledge of the aircraft they fly. We are routinely tested in aircraft systems & flight operations subjects, & safety is on the top of our list. Any mechanical irregularity is taken very seriously & addressed immediately. Thanks for voicing your concerns, but as you can see, everything was operating properly. Please come back & fly with us in the future.

[FULLTHRUST]

mspav8r,
Many thanks for the message.
There is no doubt that you (Delta pilots) receive the world class training, but my question is still unanswered.
As a Captain, would you send your FO or yourself come out to have a look in any of the similar situations (other than these flt ctrl surface issues) , or just keep the cool and take - off? What does your airman-ship dictates?