PIA To Re-route Glasgow Flight Via Frankfurt

[Abbas Ali]

By Muhammad Saleh Zaafir

ISLAMABAD: The PIA flights for Glasgow have been re-routed and it will be operated via Frankfurt now. PIA stopped its operation for Frankfurt due to European restrictions last year.

Source: The News

[Amaad Lone]

Posted On April 03

Maybe a stopover in Frankfurt or Amsterdam, could have provided the extra 70-80 passengers needed to make the Glasgow flight a success.

Atleast in the offseason flights.

Looks like someone from PIA is following the forum.

[Y e F F]

Good!

PIA is loosing loads of market potential in Germany. PIA should focus on competing with Lufthansa on this route now.

Should try to bring a better product (baggage weight 30kg in eco is already a big plus) or a better price...

[GLA777]

Will Glasgow see extra flights now or maybe the 777? Or will PIA still just have two flights per week?

[Maddad]

Posted On April 03

Maybe a stopover in Frankfurt or Amsterdam, could have provided the extra 70-80 passengers needed to make the Glasgow flight a success.

Atleast in the offseason flights.

Looks like someone from PIA is following the forum.

My point exactly the big time GM and directors are followeing this forum benifitting from the expertise and research done by the members!!!!!!

[AP-BGJ]

hello forum members

i just wanted to know that is PIA allowed to carry passengers from Frankfurt to Glasgow and vice versa. i dunno about the freedom routes so just asking this question?

kind regards

[Moin]

A good number of PIA flights into LHR sit on a remote stand for 4 to 5 hours. A plane on the ground costs money, especially when its not at its home base. Wouldn't it be better to route the LHR flight via FRA instead of GLA? GLA flights turn around in 2 to 3 hours whereas the LHR flights are much longer.

[akramch1]

Any progress about PIA frankfurt flight.?

[behramjee]

Dear Ammad and Moin,

Gone are the days when airlines can make money flying between PAK/India and UK via a EU city.

It has to be a nonstop flight especially PAK-UK to provide PIA a competitive edge over QR/EK/EY/LH/BA and more so flying nonstop PAK-UK is much cheaper operationally than via FRA because you have the extra cost burden of paying airport landing + ground handling fees at FRA + the flight's load has to be shared between PAK-FRA & PAK-UK which is a huge problem as due to demographic reasons PAK-UK is the popular and in demand sector year round.

For PIA to fly to GLA via FRA is nothing short guaranteeing itself making losses flying this route be it with an A 310 or B 772.

And Moin, flying to LHR via FRA is not on because LHR-PAK flights can survive easily on their own accord plus if the LHR flight has to be routed via FRA, the LHR arrival/departure slot has to be changed which is impossible in this day and age due to a severe shortage of slots available at decent times for all airlines.

[behramjee]

PIA should focus on competing with Lufthansa on this route now.

With all due respect to PIA, I dont think so LH should even consider it a competitor because it will have no impact on LH what so ever.

LH's pax for LHE hail largely from North America and Western Europe and not O&D traffic from Germany itself. Apart from that, LH's 3 times a week frequency, its brand name recognition, frequent flier program and onward connections via its FRA give it a huge competitive edge over PIA.

PIA's target market from FRA is O&D to PAK and with only 33,000 Pakistanis residing in FRA, its a lost cause.

To put it very bluntly, apart from MAN, LHR and OSL, PIA makes NO PROFIT on any other of its EU flights and never will until it decides to change its entire business model which is to stop focusing on O&D market segment only.

There is a reason why EK makes a profit flying to FRA/MUC and GF to CDG etc because :

1. Their flights are timed to cater for both O&D and onward 6th freedom markets in the Far East/India/DAC which PIA's aren't.

2. Their flights are flown nonstop using modern A 330s, B 777s unlike PIA who use old gas guzzling A 310s on EU flights flown via XYZ city which increases the operational cost big time.

3. Their marketing of the route is 100 times better than PIA especially EK's. Both GF & EK market themselves as a premium carrier to fly on which is evident by both their 65% plus year round business class loads from Germany and CDG.

[Amaad Lone]

Bahramjee wrote:

flying to LHR via FRA is not on because LHR-PAK flights can survive easily on their own accord

Unless you know the annual load factor on Pak-UK routes, I suggest you refrain from such sweeping statements.

if the LHR flight has to be routed via FRA, the LHR arrival/departure slot has to be changed which is impossible in this day

The flight can always leave two hours earlier, or are the slots at Pakistani airports an issue also?

Plus you are forgeting one important point. The Frankfurt stopover is not on London flights, but Glasgow.

The question of UK flights stoping over at European airports first arose at the time of 747/A310 fleet being banned from EU airports.

Only the 777s were allowed, and I felt that rather then closing down European stations, why not put them on UK flights, it was more an emergency situation, rather then an economic one.

The main issue was that PIA should maintain its market share for the eight mainland European cities that were threatened to be closed once the ban came into place.

Once the ban was lifted, PIA could return to terminating services for mainland Europe. PIA did not opt for it and lost its passenger base in Frankfut, Amsterdam, Rome and Athens. Only Paris, Milan, Oslo and Copenhagen kept getting twice weekly 777 flights.

As we saw on the Far East stations, once PIA shut them down after the closing of Indian airspace for Pakistani aircraft, PIA has never really been able to revive them properly.

I still feel, if the route is getting a low load factor (which only PIA management knows), then it should be given a stopover to a city around 60-80 minutes away.

[behramjee]

Unless you know the annual load factor on Pak-UK routes, I suggest you refrain from such sweeping statements.

ISB-LHR year round load factor 85%
LHE-LHR year round load factor 74%
KHI-LHR year round load factor 68%

Above stated figures are approximate.

Secondly, LHR is a profitable destination for PIA so that alone with or without me knowing the exact load factors warrants merit.

The flight can always lea2ve two hours earlier, or are the slots at Pakistani airports an issue also?

No it cannot due to aircraft rotation issues.

I felt that rather then closing down European stations, why not put them on UK flights, it was more an emergency situation, rather then an economic one.

I was in KHI in 2007 when this happened and PIA officially stated that they were happy that this happened as it allowed to them to thoroughly examine which routes needed to get cut due to heavy losses and no surprise there, nearly every single EU city that they fly to got chopped. Those that didnt like CDG etc were given TAG ON flights which makes the operational costs higher.

The main issue was that PIA should maintain its market share for the eight mainland European cities that were threatened to be closed once the ban came into place. Once the ban was lifted, PIA could return to terminating services for mainland Europe. PIA did not opt for it and lost its passenger base in Frankfut, Amsterdam, Rome and Athens.

Like I said earlier, PIA makes no money flying to FRA, AMS, FCO, MXP and ATH and with fuel prices being so high and that too PIA using an old A 310-300, these routes have ZERO chance of breaking even too!

As we saw on the Far East stations, once PIA shut them down after the closing of Indian airspace for Pakistani aircraft, PIA has never really been able to revive them properly.

That is because PIA doesnt know how to handle flying to BKK and MNL. BKK was twice restarted in 2004 and 2006 and within 3-4 months of it being re-launched it was suspended due to low loads and heavy losses because their flight timings for PAK-BKK-PAK were miserable plus it was a KHI-LHE-BKK and KHI-ISB-BKK flight with an A 310 thus the tag on domestic sector was bleeding the airline. If you remember, I wrote a huge analysis on how this route when it restarted in 2006 would fail within 3 months for XYZ reasons and I was proven to be right.

The same thing goes for MNL...PIA would never in its lifetime make money flying KHI-BKK-MNL-NRT which it did twice a week using a B 747 and sometimes an A 310-300.

Both MNL and BKK have a lot of potential for PIA to exploit if these flights connect in both directions via KHI to JED/RUH/DXB/AUH/MCT but unfortunately for u, PIA's route network planning dept is immune to thinking along these lines.

I still feel, if the route is getting a low load factor (which only PIA management knows), then it should be given a stopover to a city around 60-80 minutes away.

Your philosophy of airline economics for medium haul routes (PAK-UK and PAK-East Asia) from an operational standpoint may be relevant in the 1980s and 90s when oil was between $ 20-40 a barrel but not in this current climate unfortunately.