AirBlue jet down in Islamabad

[TAILWIND]

Though nothing to celebrate especially on this thread discussing the tragic crash of Air Blue flight, I have completed my 400 post on this forum. Hope I have been able to keep the spirit of the Forum

[meekal ahmed]

I just came across by accident a video of an A320 making the teardrop circle-to-land approach to some airport in Latin America. I wish I could up-load it here or better still up-load it to the CAA web-site.

The airline obviously had everything in the FMGS and you could see the entire procedure with the way-points on the ND. They were not in IMC but as it sometimes done crews will do an IMC approach even in clear conditions just for practice.

My question is a very simple one: why doesn't PIA and the others have the procedure for 12 at OPRN already in the FMC/FMGS database which can be selected at a touch of the button?

If they do, you fly it with AP ON and with great precision and accuracy.

[meekal ahmed]

[YouTube][/YouTube]

Here it is, the teardrop circle-to-land.

If you can't see it, please let me know I may have made a mistake.

[TAILWIND]

.............My question is a very simple one: why doesn't PIA and the others have the procedure for 12 at OPRN already in the FMC/FMGS database which can be selected at a touch of the button?

Sadly its not as simple.
First there are published procedures for NDB or VOR approach for rwy 12 OPRN, however these are non-precision approached. These procedures have their own limitations and minimas as is the case with any approach. Moreover you cannot fly the final segment on the appraoch on FMC/FMGS information alone. This is neither practical nor permitted in regulations. The navigation information generated by the FMS is from a combination of sources i.e VOR/DME, GPS and/or INS etc. Due to safety considerations these cannot be used as a sole means for guidance in the final segment of landing appraoch.
Most important however is the fact the a 'circle to land' maneouvre is primarily a visual procedure which has to be flown by the pilot through visual external references in VMC.

[Abbas Ali]

AirBlue message in today's (August 8) newspaper asking relatives of passengers of July 28 flight ED-202 to contact airline for registration process.

[meekal ahmed]

Tailwind,

Your answer is unconvincing.

With this sort of "picture" in front of them they would have to be pretty bad pilots (which they weren't) and completely blind (which they were not) to hit a hill an incredible 9.7 miles out on -- apparently -- a heading of 340!

Having this on your ND, whether with AP ON or OFF, visual or not, would have given a huge boost to "situational awareness" -- which lies at the heart of this accident. You use ALL your resources plus good CRM and you will be fine.

It would not take much to "build" this procedure and up-load it in the nav. data-base.

This "glass technology" is the biggest innovation in aviation and safety to come along in some time. As you must have read and seen in magazines, the newer versions are coming out with 3-D images of the terrain. Even the little Cessna 150 on which everyone trains when they first fly comes with a "glass cockpit"!

I am surprised you seem inclined to dismiss the usefulness of this incredible device but more importantly what you can do with it to enhance safety.

[TAILWIND]

I am surprised you seem inclined to dismiss the usefulness of this incredible device but more importantly what you can do with it to enhance safety.

First off all glad to have been involved in healthy and educational discussion. Next, I dont think I ever gave a hint dismissing the usefulness of such systems. But can you answer one simple question.....why cat-III C autoland is dependent on ground based system,why not to land the aircraft with all the 'íncredible' systems on board?
It was in this context I wrote that after you leave the ILS for circle to land maneouvre, it is visual thereafter. But that by no means suggests that pilots have no information available other than outside references. All what modern gadgetry has to offer in a modern cockpit like that of A-320 is there to guide, advise and if need be, warn the crew of any impending unsafe condition.
The question is what went wrong and CVR/DFDR may give the answer to this.
All CFIT accidents in modern aircraft reveal that some vital actions or step was not done or done wrongly which started the chain of events leading to disaster. In my opinion (and its opinion nothing else) they entered clouds during downwind or start of base turn hence lost the ground contact. Thereafter thinking that it was a small patch, pressed on hoping to regain the visual reference again, which alas they couldnot.

[meekal ahmed]

Tailwind,

I enjoy interacting with you too.

Islamabad's runway 30 is a Cat II ILS/DME (as far as I know) so there is no auto-land available but of course that is a precision approach to be preferred to the circle-to-land on 12. But the wind that day was 050/16kts which is pretty strong and would have implied quite a tail-wind with a cross-wind as well.

I think there were a couple of diversions but one PIA flight landed on 12 after the accident. So 12 was in-use.

You talk about entering cloud. Yes, that is a possibility and a very real one and they did probably think/hope they would come out of it quickly and regain visual reference.

That was a fatal mistake.

As soon as the pilots lost forward visibility they are supposed to execute an immediate and aggressive go-around as you well know. This they did not do.

If EGPWS was not inhibited -- he was probably in Config. 2 with gear down and not in Full landing config. so it should have worked -- they would have got a "Terrain Ahead" caution before the warning because EGPWS is terrain-map-based. That first caution gives you plenty of time which is the beauty of the EGPWS (as opposed to the older look-down GPWS).

As I have said before, your first instinct/reaction when you get the caution is shock and disbelief. 'It can't be right' you think to youself because you are sure about where you are. Then you look down and check your instruments while all the while you are flying towards the hills.

By the time they got the warning (s), it was probably too late.

Some say he was in GA mode; others think not.

Many months will go by and we (the gullible public) will be told the CVR/DFDR are still being de-coded. Then, as in the past, there will be a few calculated leaks to tittilate and satisfy us. Then there will be silence and we will be left with rumors, speculation and inneuendo.

[Abbas Ali]

[YouTube][/YouTube]

If you can't see it, please let me know I may have made a mistake.

The YouTube video URL should be placed between YouTube tags [YouTube][/YouTube], like following example.

Code: Select all

[YouTube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlKApjc9T2U[/YouTube]

and the video will appear like this:



or simply link to video can be posted like this:



Abbas

[TAILWIND]

Tailwind,

I enjoy interacting with you too.

Thanks

Islamabad's runway 30 is a Cat II ILS/DME (as far as I know)

Its Cat I

[meekal ahmed]

Thanks for the information.

[R.F.]

Islamabad's runway 30 is a Cat II ILS/DME (as far as I know) so there is no auto-land available but of course that is a precision approach

May i also hasten to add here that Auto land has nothing to do with Cat 1 or 2, it's basically an aircraft system and independent of the ground based Precision approach category. Auto land can also be accomplished on an Cat 1 ILS provided the weather conditions permit visual monitoring of the approach profile throughout, similarly Cat 2 may be conducted manually depending upon the company policy or may have a mandatory stipulation for an auto land example the FAA compliant countries, however on a Cat 3 a/b auto land is mandatory.

Cat 3c is an FAA only concept and is non compliant with EU-JAA-ICAO rules and regs. as 3-b covers it.

[Huraiz]

A father's ordeal
Saturday, August 07, 2010
I am the father of Hassan Adeel who was on board the ill-fated Airblue flight that crashed in the Margalla Hills. I recount my experiences in this ordeal to highlight the manner in which things were handled by the authorities. I got the shocking news of the crash from the media and when I realised that it was the same flight which my son was boarding, I rushed to the scene of incident. What I saw and what certain people in authority told me confirmed that there was absolutely no chance of any survivors. The whole day I was in contact with the PIMS staff to establish if my son's body had been recovered. They kept informing me that my son's body had not been identified so far. Around 10 p.m. that night, one Dr Tariq from PIMS informed me on telephone that out of the 128 bodies recovered till then, only 13 had been identified, but my son's was not among those. He advised me to meet him the next day for DNA tests.

However, around midnight, some unknown person claiming to be from the media phoned me to inform that my son's body had been identified. At the same time, some colleagues of my deceased son sent my eldest son an SMS giving the tag number of the coffin (67). I rushed to the hospital but did not find the body of my son in box number 67. However, I found his body in box number 76 instead of 67. Though disfigured, it was not even scorched or burnt. Besides the body, his CNIC, driving licence, ATM card, baggage tag, e-ticket and the cover of his cellular phone were also handed over to me.

Later, I learnt that around noon that day one of the private TV channels had reported the recovery of Hassan Adeel's body and even quoted his CNIC number. I also learnt that around 7 p.m. the same evening, another TV channel even displayed an image of his CNIC reporting that his body had been recovered. Consequent to this ordeal, following questions are now lurking in my mind: when the strip about the recovery of my son's body was being displayed as early as about midday, why were those actually responsible for his identification procrastinating the issue? Why was I told by the authorities concerned -- as late as 10 p.m. that day -- that my son's body had still not been identified? If media persons could identify my son's body, why couldn't (or didn't) those who were actually responsible for doing so?

Who was responsible for the misinformation that five survivors had been evacuated to hospital, giving false hopes to so many bereaved families and adding to their agonies? Even the widow of the chief pilot, Pervez Iqbal Chaudhry, contacted me on July 31, seeking information about her husband, because she had been led to believe that he was among the five survivors. Adeel, like most people, used to keep his CNIC and driving licence etc. in his wallet. One can conclude that these things too would be recovered from his wallet. But why was the wallet not handed over to me, even without the money that he was carrying? Who pilfered it? Similarly, who pilfered the cellular phone (he was carrying two), leaving behind the carrying case only?

I am not reporting my concerns to any government authority because I am sure they will receive no attention. They will just get buried under tons of bureaucratic hurdles. However, as the guardians of the common man's rights, I request you to ask those who were made responsible for handling the affairs in the aftermath of this tragedy as to why they failed in their duty to identify the simplest of cases (some well-wishers also confirmed that Adeel's was the only body recovered intact), not to talk of the massively complex ones that are still longing for resolution, and to protect the property of the deceased which holds immense emotional value for the family. We callously ignore the tenets of our religion and will not hesitate to steal from the dead bodies. We will not hesitate to chop the hands and fingers off dead bodies just to quench our lust for what is rightfully not ours. We have seen it happen after the earthquake a few years back and we see it happening today. Even if the greedy among us may be held responsible, it is the prime responsibility of those in authority to check and prevent all this from happening. Regrettably, we don't see it actually happening.

Shaikh Shamim Akhtar

Islamabad

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=255277

[Abbas Ali]

Crashed AirBlue Airbus A321-200 (AP-BJB) aircraft's FDR/CVR along with some other components/parts have been sent to France for decoding/analysis process - Info Source: Express News channel - August 9, 2010 news report

[Abbas Ali]

Black box from Margalla crash sent for decoding

August 10, 2010

The black box of Airblue plane that crashed in Margalla Hills has been sent to France for decoding.

Civil Aviation officials said that the actual cause of the plane crash will be known after decoding the black box. A five-member French investigation team has returned to France along with four important parts of the crashed plane.

The air traffic control record of the Airblue plane will also be a part of the investigation process.

A five-member Pakistani team headed by Air Commodore Khwaja Majeed has left for France and will assist in the decoding process.

Sources said the decoding process will take more than six months.

Source: tribune.com.pk