AirBlue jet down in Islamabad

[Shahab]

In my opinion, it is a bit naive to suggest that (ex) air force pilots have difficulty reading Jeppesen charts. I mean people like me with no aviation background can understand them to some extent. Does any one know what sort of approach charts fighter pilots use (if any)? There must be some sort of set procedures to take off and land from air force strips. Surely it cannot be visual all the time.

[imranzul]

There is no other approach to RW12 Other than maintaing Visual contact with runway and remaining within a certian radius of the airport. OPRN is a civil/military airbase and airport and many ex fighter pilots go on to become commercial pilots.

[TAILWIND]

Well we may be drifting away from the tragic accident and related discussion, yet I could not resist myself from jumping into this new turn the topic is taking. I think its abit too much to accuse a fighter pilot ( one having flown f-16 in this case) of not being able to read a jeppeson chart or not having enough experience to negotiate bad weather.
Fighter pilots can and do fly IMC, in all weathers day and night. An airline pilot gets unusual attitude recovery training may be once in a year that too in a sim, whereas thats the bread and butter of a fighter pilot and he undergoes that almost daily. Imagine compare the relaxed atmosphere of an airliner cockpit with alll the gadgets and info plus another crew member to share the work load and assist in decision making with the lonely and cramped cokpit of a fighter. All his nav enroute and approach charts, flight planing info and data on a small 4 inch by 6 inch knee pad.
No offence to airline or commercial pilots, whats so big in interpretting a Jeppesson Sheet. My 14 year son can handle that off course with a bit of briefing. Anyone with average intelligence can read that.

[thunderfalcon]

A fighter pilot may not always be a good commercial pilot but I don't believe that PAF just hands over F 16 to anyone without giving them training in bad weather..

Kindly check up from the PAF Including the F 16 breed how much they are trained in aweather like this.I myself served in the Airforce therefore i know it.

I would have thought that ex-Airforce pilots would be one of the best, subject to their age of course. All El Al pilots are ex-Israeli Airforce.

If this is the case why doesn't PIA and all other leading airlines hire pilots of their respective Airforce. Kindly do check up from Lufthansa, Emirates, SA, Singapure Airlines etcetc. Common try to berealistic.

In my opinion, it is a bit naive to suggest that (ex) air force pilots have difficulty reading Jeppesen charts. I mean people like me with no aviation background can understand them to some extent. Does any one know what sort of approach charts fighter pilots use (if any)? There must be some sort of set procedures to take off and land from air force strips. Surely it cannot be visual all the time.

Kindly do talk about it to the Chief Pilot Training. He himself is from Transport Squadron of the PAF. What I am talking about is that fighter pilots do not believe and interpret these charts as should be . Try and get some first hand information directly from concerned people in Airblue.

There is no other approach to RW12 Other than maintaing Visual contact with runway and remaining within a certian radius of the airport. OPRN is a civil/military airbase and airport and many ex fighter pilots go on to become commercial pilots

Many ex figjter pilots become commrcial pilots but do you really thinks that on his second flight on A320 the pilots has the guts to correct/ advise his captain if he goes wrong? You know how at least this aspect is in Pakistani culture.

I think its abit too much to accuse a fighter pilot ( one having flown f-16 in this case) of not being able to read a jeppeson chart or not having enough experience to negotiate bad weather.

Kindly don't take F16 pilots for Grandfathers of all Pilots . Please do check selction procedure in the PAF for various weapon systems. See kindly who performs how specially at the CCS course at Sarghoda.

No offence to airline or commercial pilots, whats so big in interpretting a Jeppesson Sheet. My 14 year son can handle that off course with a bit of briefing. Anyone with average intelligence can read that

Try to put someone in actuall IMC and Mountains ahead and maybe also with the Captain in some problem that too on the second flight on the type of aircraft. Try to be realistic on computers it is easy why don't you put your son than on actal controls?

.

[Moin]

Then kindly do educate us simpletons and teach us to be realistic if you know so much.

[imranzul]

but do you really thinks that on his second flight on A320 the pilots has the guts to correct/ advise his captain if he goes wrong? You know how at least this aspect is in Pakistani culture.

Maybe so as the Captain was very experienced and the F/O not as experienced on type also - in hindsight its easiy to say I know, but if the FO had any inclination something was wrong im sure he would had made the call If he knew that the plane + crew + pax were in danger -its just human nature to do so. I dont think anyone could just sit back and do nothing knowing what the impending outcome would be, Im sorry i just dont agree with that at all. Seniority aside were talking saving lives here and again I dont think even the FO knew what was wrong unfortunately until the very last moments.

[Abbas Ali]

News reports claiming that it was second flight for Muntajib as AirBlue First Officer need to be clarified to general public.

What I understand is that it was second flight for Muntajib as fully qualified/trained First Officer for Airbus A320 family aircraft.

As a trainee pilot, Muntajib must have flown AirBlue A320 family aircraft a number of times and accumulated flying hours under the supervision of instructor pilots.

According to a newspaper article, Muntajib had joined AirBlue nearly a year ago and according to statement by AirBlue CEO Shahid Khaqan Abbasi printed in newspapers, Muntajib had 300 flight hours experience on A320 family aircraft. Apparently large number of these 300 flight hours must have been accumulated by Muntajib through training flights on Airbus A320 family aircraft.

Quoted below is brief info about Airbus A320 Type Rating Training I found on http://www.simulator-experience.com/A32 ... ining.html

ATP have been tasked to run the selection progress which will include a simulator check on the A320, ATPL based quiz, and a CRM assessment.

Once successfully selected you will attend an induction course at the Airline headquarters, to start the security screening process.

Training

Our syllabus is based on standard Airbus SOP's (Standard Operating Procedures). The CBT we use is Cpat and very user friendly. It is supplied on a Flash Drive (USB) so you do not need internet access to study, it is yours to keep after the course.

During the Ground School which has a 14 working day footprint you will have a fully qualified Airbus TRI/TRE on hand to lead you through the syllabus.

Performance Course

Instructor led lessons will form part of the ground school. A 2 day "Performance Course" is included in the footprint to make you familiar with the Airbus A320 performance calculations and FCOM3. (FCOM: Flight Crew Operations Manual).

Included in the ground school is FMGS (Flight Management Guidance System) and Fixed Base Training. This will be instructor led and utilize our dedicated training devices on site.

Examination

An examination will be conducted on the Systems, Performance and Low Visibility procedures at the end of the ground school.

The Full Flight phase will be conducted on Level D simulators.

9 four hour sessions of training and then a Skills Test to complete. (LST)

This is a minimum and some of our customer airlines insist on additional training, for example a "Jet Familiar" or "Pre Base Training" session.

Base Training

The "Base Training" is conducted on the actual A320. There is a minimum requirement to complete 6 "Touch and Go's" At present we use several providers for this, one is a UK airline and one is based on the Continent.

Course Completion Certificate

Your paperwork will then be collated by us and a "Course Completion Certificate" will be issued. Your "Type Rating" will then be issued.

Line Training & Flying

If required "Line Training and Flying" will then take place. We can secure up to 300 Hours with several operators.

Abbas

[TAILWIND]

....is easy why don't you put your son than on actal controls?.

Come on he is just 14. He will Inshallah get on real planes too once time comes.

[TAILWIND]

Here is what I feel in the aftermath of the tragedy. I hope this will get the discussion back to its original purpose.

Tragedies like individuals expose nations and governments to the test and how well the nation handles a tragedy, reflects its ability and capability. After the tragic earthquake of 2005, we hoped and expected that lessons have been learnt and necessary procedures, infrastructure and above all a will to respond to such events and mitigate the effects has been realized and enforced. Alas in the aftermath of Airblue flight crash in Islamabad on 28 Jul the failures of not only the government and its different departments but many, others for example media and the general public have been fully exposed. Keep in mind that this incident though tragic is nothing as compared to the 2005 earthquake and various other natural and man made calamities that regularly hit this hapless nation. The causes leading to the worst aircraft accident in country’s history will hopefully be investigated by concerned authorities, there is a need though to analyze the response by the government and others in the aftermath of the tragedy.

Taking the government first, a total collapse and lack of responsibility was shown starting from the very top itself. Most of the actions and uttering were more for the gallery than actual rescue and relief activities. First and foremost was the cancellation of cabinet meeting. Usually under such circumstances, meetings are called rather cancelling the ongoing routine meeting. The PM should have benefitted from presence of all his lieutenants with him and issued necessary instruction and orders after gathering all available information. He instead chose to cancel the meeting and went for an utterly unnecessary aerial safari with all his aides, in designer suits, he himself enjoying chewing gum, supari or allaichi in the full view of TV camera which recorded all this from uncomfortably close close-up. Even if the PM wanted to have a first hand observation of the crash site, why was a TV camera taken on board. Much has been said about interior minister’s statement about the survivors so we leave it not deserving any more attention suffice to say it was an epic example of foot in mouth. In the overall rescue and relief operation, one could not make out who was the in charge, and whom to listen to and believe. Was it the federal government, city administration, search and rescue organizations, the airline, civil aviation authority or some body else. Every one and any one seized the opportunity to be on camera and said anything without realizing its authenticity, effects and consequences, interior minister leading the way.

Coming to the rescue efforts we saw a total lack of direction, coordination and control. At no stage it was clear who was in charge, the city administration, Rescue 1122, military or chairman bait ul mal for that matter. Initial rush to the crash scene by general public though natural, should have been controlled in the later stages and area been cleared from onlookers and public. The airline and the CAA remained out of scene and mum. The helicopters were scene without rescue winches to lower the paramedics on the scene as the landings were impossible and lift the dead or injured (if any) from the dense jungle and steep slopes. Either military or cabinet division’s helicopters donot have such rescue hoists and other paraphernalia like baskets, stretches and harnesses and if they had such equipment they thought better to preserve those for some other day. A light helicopter was scene with a rope from its cabin being held by a crew member by hand and lifting up brown sack probably human remains of some victim. This speaks of the readiness and capacity of such organizations. Routine actions by various departments were linked to special instructions from the president and the PM as if in the absence of such instructions, the hospitals would not provide medical aid to injured or police and rescue agencies wont start their routine action if the PM did not ask them to, ”her qism ki madad fauri fraham ke jai”.

In this particular tragedy we observed a number of past and present pilots, aviation professionals and so called safety experts letting their imagination loose and bombard the TV channels with their expert opinions, even when the fire on the crash site had not yet been extinguished. This was all based on speculation, and hearsay perhaps due to our common fantasy to be on TV screen. Irresponsible statements and theories, half known facts and inaccurate terminologies were thrown freely across the channels. Missed approach, Go-around, no fly zone, safety corridor, diversion, circling landing, CB clouds, ANO 3, ANO 4, crew fatigue etc were mentioned freely and abundantly by such experts. Most distressing were the statements by officials in important positions like MD PIA and President PALPA, who in particular vomited all his venom against PIA management not realizing that it was AIrblue whose aircraft was involved in the incident. Utter lack of professionalism and responsibility was exhibited by these professionals who should and do know the intricacies of aviation accidents and failed to use their judgment on how and what to say where and when.

Last but not the least is the media, both print and electronic who did not surprise us with a balance coverage without creating sensationalism and anxiety. One is at odds to understand what’s the point in asking the close relatives of the deceased as to how they feel and what type of person the marhoom was. What answers the reporter expects from those quizzed. Moreover it is natural that the family will be in mourning and women crying and wailing, but the cameras intrude into such families and air emotional scenes which are otherwise quite normal under the circumstances. One channel had the top headline during the afternoon that they were the first to break the news and such and such reporter reached the crash site barefooted. Well that’s his or her job and is getting paid for that. Channels showed fictitious animations showing an aircraft flying low and banging into a mountain with no relation or knowledge of actual geographical features, distances and flight path the ill fated flight followed immediately before the crash. In the evening almost all channels had convened air accident boards in there talk shows and discussing every possible theory imaginable even to the extent that the captain of the flight (who looks a religious person by face) might have remained awake the previous night on shab e barat hence was fatigued and could not handle the situation. Remember this is happening the same evening within less than 12 hours of the crash. In the same context one columnist in a leading Urdu daily was so insensitive and cruel so as at to have suspected a kamikaze type mission targeting presidency or the US embassy, reason…..the religious looking face of the late captain.

This and many other episodes like this show a total lack of professionalism and methodology by all with no exceptions. Unless we learn lessons from own and other’s experience and evolve measures to handle such situations we will continue to multiply the effects of such disasters and keeping on looking for divine intervention without making any effort on our part. And this is true not for the government alone but for all organs of the state and society.

[thunderfalcon]

Then kindly do educate us simpletons and teach us to be realistic if you know so much.

_________________
Moin Abbasi

No reason to take anything personal.Sorry if somebody feels offended, but please do check up from Airblue concerned authorities. On my return to Pakistan I will do it and provide facts from concerned personels known to me in Airblue.
Regards

[umar744]

Salam hello
last Sunday my flight TG916 B747400 HS-TGX from BKK Bangkok to LHR London overfly LHE, ISB, PEW, KBL but very bad serious very heavy several turblance from Lahore to Kabul very strong wind bad thunderstorm Flight 34,000feet then pilot hard work to climb 37000feet then 40,000feet then 41,000 feet then 43,000 feet for 2 hours then reduce to 39,000feet overfly Moscow and Captain invited me to cockpit and I talked Captain said that bad weather in Pakistan Northwest and Captain said very sad sorry of AirBlue A321 crashed and I said yes my friend Capt. Pervaiz Iqbal Chaudhry. all cockpit crew very sad sorry to AirBlue lost AP-BJB pax & crew. they said problem serious
1)JETSTEAM in mountain hill
2)loss wind air
3)very danger in hill and mountain
you know BOAC (now BA)Boeing 707 in 1966 from Haneda, Tokyo to overfly Mountain Fiji then B707 fell fall off plummed to earth during clear good weather click here http://aviation-safety.net/database/rec ... 19660305-1
ALL flight prohibited overfly China largest mountain area Himauyun but restricted route from ISB to Bejing overfly mountain.
all cockpit crew said that perhaps maybe AirBlue A321 got loss of control loss of wind or tail or wing broke up or plummed to earth. there NOTHING do wrong with Capt.Pervaiz Iqbal Chaudhry or First officer M.Chughtai.
All flight everytime got turblance overfly Turkey mountain and Northern Pakistan Mountain during flight. I flew with Qantas 747400 Captain told me to wear full seat fast belt and captain & first officer keep eye watch look mountain with binocular for any JETSTEAM can kill or damage or destroy aircraft.
Surprised My flight Captain Thai 747400 have been to ISB before and he know very dangerous in ISB he said REMEMBER Thai A310 crashed in Kathmandu 1992 and Thai A310 crashed south Thailand during bad weather. click here is
http://aviation-safety.net/database/rec ... 19981211-0
Hope all flight safely.

[divine]

@All:Thanks for the prayers .. I really need those prayers and please keep it going on.
@Moin:Although there are levels of shahadat,but the muslims who died in some unexpected tragedies and natural disasters like the Plane crash,Target Killings,Floods are all included in the list of Shaheeds.
Like Most of the people on that plane is going for a good cause like my Father was going earn Halal Rozi,as you know earning halal rozi is also an 'Ibadat'.so obviously when a muslim dies during an ibadat is also Shaheed.You can do little research on this topic

(Pardon me for my English)

Regards.

[R.F.]

All airlines train to the industry standards and norms, the concept of a good pilot remains open to debate. A military mind set differs greatly from it civilian counter part as in the military philosophy it's the mission first and safety later due to its nature of ops, where as it's vice versa in the airline business. Interpreting an approach chart and it's application for a newly released pilot un familiar with the format may present some issues couple that with weather and terrain a high stress/ work load situation may develop presenting quite a formidable challenge. I'm sure many inspiring airline pilots and young minds when entering an airliner flight deck find the enviournment pleasantly relaxed with two qualified individuals engaged in small talk at times enjoying a beverage assisted by the automation. The instant impression is that of a 'piece of cake' as inferred from some of the posts on the forum, however to display that 'piece of cake' impression it takes tons of experience, training and a life time in the air. Once airborne the choices remains overly simplistic and that it to get back on the ground in one piece which at times may require no ordinary feat as opposed to many other jobs in a placid, mundane enviournment.

A military pilot undergoes extensive training to battle an enemy keeping our borders safe and us civilians away from harms way, however in airline business it's completely different, there are no enemies to battle except weather and fatigue, they're trained to cross borders, go to work when the whole world sleeps, eat at odd hours try to go against the body clock, battle with rigorous medical check ups (which the military pilots also have to undergo at regular intervals), regular proficiency checks with the looming threat of losing ones professional reputation or job in the event of an error and the fact that regardless of who ever makes a mistake the buck stops at the pilot. Therefore attempting to undermine or compare civilian versus military is a gross misnomer as both jobs are demanding in their own respects with two completely different concepts.

It's greatly disappointing and unprofessional besides a breach of trust when an responsible post holder and a management pilot ( AB Chief Pilot Trg.) offers personal opinions or cast doubts on the deceased pilots professional standing, more so in his capacity as a training head which is the back bone of any airline. Prudence demanded that he should have waited for the investigation to reach its conclusive end prior to issuing any statements as during the course the training and personal records of the pilots would undergo meticulous scrutiny. By offering personal opinions or statements to irresponsible individuals who without the slightest hesitation or inkling of the damage it may inflict and devoid of any knowledge of the subject post these views on a public forum oblivious to the fact that they're displaying a lack of maturity and understanding which goes a step further to show an utter lack of respect for the departed souls.

The training head (CPT) by prematurely initiating a blame game has conveniently overlooked a very basic cardinal point which is that under his watch the pilot was released as a First officer and if he was found wanting in certain rudimentary areas such as reading a jepp approach plate then it only goes to show his gross failure as the head of training, since he failed to use his position or good offices to either bring him up to the required standards or terminate his training altogether. If there were external pressures from certain influential quarters to continue then he should have honorably relinquished his position on the grounds of undue interference in his duties as the Chief of Training, instead displaying a moral turpitude which is so blatantly evident in our decadent society as Pakistanis.

Further he should be held equally culpable and accountable removing him from his position with immediate effect placing him under investigation for running an inept and an un -professional department where knowingly that a trainee not meeting the standards is being released on line. Therefore issuing such statements and engaging in a blame game at this juncture can go severely against him as in his infinite wisdom he'll be responsible for the demise of his professional and personal integrity, which does not seem to reflect as evident from his lack of professional behaviour.

All in all I'd strongly suggest to refrain from posting personal opinions and casting doubts on the professional integrity of the deceased as they're NOT amongst us to defend their position besides this clearly shows a lack of respect for the departed souls. Be patient, the investigation if ever made public in its true form shall reveal the lapses, after all if it's a pilot error then what more accountability is required as they've already paid with their dear lives.

Just my personal views and observation and with no intention to cause harm or embarrassment to any individual.

[Moin]

Then kindly do educate us simpletons and teach us to be realistic if you know so much.

_________________
Moin Abbasi

No reason to take anything personal.Sorry if somebody feels offended, but please do check up from Airblue concerned authorities. On my return to Pakistan I will do it and provide facts from concerned personels known to me in Airblue.
Regards

No offence taken. If I need to know anything I can always ask Raheel Ahmed.

[thunderfalcon]

R.F
I fully agrre with your opinion.
Sorry if my views have upset anybody.I lost a very good friend on that flight myself.
Pray for the departed souls.