AirBlue jet down in Islamabad

[ConnieMan]

Ramadan Mubarak to every one!


It seems ridiculous to me that I senior pilot like Captain Chaudhry can commit such a blunder. Please can anyone advise if it is possible at all? (I know a lot of aviation savvies are following these discussions)

Or may be the pilot tried to attempt a crash landing on 7th Avenue and then changed his mind and tried to gain some elevation to clear the Margalla hills?

Well there was a PIA's Fokker crash in late 80's that i remember when the pilot of that ill-fated flight was certain he was seeing the runway when ATC couldn't even visually see him at later hours of the night, it turned out that pilot of that Fokker was seeing canal in reflection of moon light that he thought was a runway and went in for landing, when he realized it wasn't the runway, it was already too late and that Fokker crashed in that canal......

So i hope that's not what happened with ABlue's crash but there could be a remote possibility and that for some weird reason cockpit crew got stray in thinking as if Ave 7 is the runway due to heavy fog, but then they aborted the runway then went right instead of left, so obviously pilot won't think that they are on runway so soon when they didn't turned back towards it...too many questions are as "What if", lets wait to see what France has to say after de-coding Black boxes...

[meekal ahmed]

I don't think a senior pilot making a fatal mistake is as rediculous as it sounds. Even good pilots and very good one's make mistakes that kills them and their passengers.

The pilot of the Inaugral flight to Cairo was Capt. A. A. Khan, PIA's No.1 in terms of seniority. He made a fatal mistake and evidently under-shot. I think 5 survived. Capt. Khan was highly regarded for his outstanding airmanship skills. Capt Shaukat Khan then became the senior-most.

The pilot of the 747-200 that landed with its gear up in Islamabad was Capt. Siraj. Very senior. Very competent. He forgot to call for "gear-down" and as captain should have glanced over to his right to make sure it was down and there were three greens showing.

I don't know much about Capt. Iftikhar Janjua who flew the A300 into a ridge on approach to Khatmandu.

It was not Capt. Khalid Wyne's fault that there was an in-flight fire on his 707 which could not be controlled. He did not make it back to Jeddah. But he was a very good pilot and although new on the 707 I am sure he did his best to get back to the airport and to safety.

These are some accidents that come to mind.

I could go on about US/UK accidents I know about but this is about PIA. Our pilots are generally speaking very good. Excellent perhaps. But even some of the best make fatal mistakes -- as we see. That is a paradox to be sure and something for experts to study.

Over-confidence, complacency, spatial disorientation, loss of situational awareness, fatigue subtly and silently interact to create accidents. Even in the case of the best pilots.

[cashy]

CDA to construct memorial

Monday, August 02, 2010
Islamabad

The Capital Development Authority (CDA) decided on Sunday to construct a ‘Martyrs’ Wall’ in the Margalla Hills at a site along the winding road from where the site of the unfortunate plane crash would be most visible.

CDA Chairman Imtiaz Inayat Elahi said that the authority fully shares the sorrow and agony of the families who lost their near and dear ones in this tragic incident. “As a civic body Capital Development Authority will construct a ‘Martyrs Wall’ inscribed with the details of the tragic incidents as well as the names and other necessary details of the deceased would be carved on it. The site would be such that people, who may wish to stop, say a prayer, or lay a flower in memory of the departed souls,” he said.

The members of the Youth Parliament of Pakistan also organized a prayer gathering in the Margallas on Sunday in memory of six of their colleagues and every soul on-board the ill-fated aircraft that crashed into the Margalla hills under some inexplicable circumstances.

The Capital Development Authority chairman was not shy in appreciating the efforts and hard work put in by the poor forest guards and other low-grade employees of the Environment Wing of the authority who remained engaged in the search and salvage operation amidst inclement weather and hostile conditions till the time the operation was officially called off.

“They were not trained for the purpose but they responded spontaneously and were first ones to reach the site and start searching for any survivors, which unfortunately there was none.

“These poor forest guards have set remarkable precedents of honesty as they handed over heavy amounts of cash and other precious belongings of the passengers they found from the crash site to the concerned authorities. A function would be organised to acknowledge the services of these forest guards, the rescue workers, officials and officers of the agency during this operation,” he said.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=254250

[ConnieMan]

I'm glad that a memorable will be made to honor all who departed us on that doomed flight. May all rest there souls in Jannat and relieve the pain and grief of remaining friends and family members, Ameen.

I wonder if authorities involved in the search n rescue of this crash have picked up every bit of the wreckage or if there is still lots scattered on that hill?, plus i wonder if they will try to re assemble/re-construct the remains of aircraft to analyze any possibility that could answer some questions indicating cause of this crash.

[t_kaay]

Ramadan Mubarak to every one!

I have heard some people claiming that they saw the aircraft descending over 7th Avenue, then pilot lifted the aircraft and after a few moments they heard the explosion. It appeared like the pilot confused 7th Avenue with runway and when he realized that it is a road he tried his best to climb over the Margalla Hill but unfortunately failed to do so.

It seems ridiculous to me that I senior pilot like Captain Chaudhry can commit such a blunder. Please can anyone advise if it is possible at all? (I know a lot of aviation savvies are following these discussions)

Or may be the pilot tried to attempt a crash landing on 7th Avenue and then changed his mind and tried to gain some elevation to clear the Margalla hills?

If this has already been discussed in this topic, please disregard and accept my apologies.

Both scenarios can probably be ruled out due to the fact that there was no communication with atc. In the 1st scenario the pilot would have informed atc he was on final approach to land on what he thought was the runway....in the 2nd scenario the pilot would have told atc he intended the crash landing...plus the fact he wouldn't attempt crash landing on a main road at that time of the morning as the road would be busy and there would be danger of more loss of life,

[Zulfiqar]

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... almost-480

Airblue crash funerals are over — almost

By Munawer Azeem
Saturday, 14 Aug, 2010

ISLAMABAD, Aug, 13: Funerals of the 152 passengers and crew who perished in the Airblue crash here two weeks ago are over — or almost.

Remains of the last 20 victims who could not be identified from the body parts kept in boxes in a makeshift mortuary were buried in H-11 graveyard on Friday with the consent of their heirs.

But the remains in four boxes, believed to be those of some foreigners and crew members, have been left in the mortuary for the civil aviation authorities to decide their disposal.

Police told Dawn that the Islamabad administration invited the heirs to a meeting early Friday and suggested burying the unidentified remains in a mass grave. But the heirs wanted a separate grave for each victim and a memorial wall at the site.

Both their wishes were accepted. However, the response to the heirs’ desire that “each and every detail of the cause of the air crash — the worst in Pakistan’s history — should be made public” was not known.

After the meeting, a mass funeral prayer was offered in the evening and 20 coffins containing the remains were buried in the southern corner of the graveyard.

Law Minister Babar Awan represented the federal government at the funeral ceremony which was attended by relatives of the crash victims and senior administration and police officials.

Airblue and the Capital Development Authority will bear the cost of the memorial wall to be built at the site.

City officials said the names of all the 152 victims of the air crash would be engraved on the wall. Coffin numbers of the 20 victims whose remains could not be identified would appear separately.

[Zulfiqar]

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... -480-hh-07

Air crash inquiry
Dawn Editorial
Saturday, 14 Aug, 2010

While the families of the passengers and crew who perished in the Margalla plane crash two and a half weeks ago are still in mourning, they must inevitably deal with the issue of compensation.

However, in addition to the need to ensure adequate monetary compensation for the deaths of the grieving families’ relatives, justice for the air crash victims and their surviving families demands a thorough public investigation to verify any act of omission or commission which could have resulted in the tragedy. Justice would not be served if the inquiry into the Margalla air crash met the same fate as the other inquiries conducted into numerous air crashes involving Pakistani commercial carriers. These were kept away from the eyes of the public with the crash officially being attributed to ‘pilot error’.

If the inquiry into the Margalla air crash is to be one that will help prevent such tragedies from happening again, it would have to go beyond merely blaming easy targets like the pilot or the weather. Pakistan is rated Category 1 in the International Aviation Safety Assessment Programme, which determines whether a country — not individual air carriers — adheres to international standards and recommended practices for aircraft operation and maintenance established by the International Civil Aviation Organisation. Nevertheless concerns about traffic control protocols and navigation aids, especially at Islamabad’s airport, have reportedly been raised by industry experts. Earlier, in 2007, safety issues about Pakistan’s air industry had been highlighted when the European Union banned the national airline’s flights, apparently because of concerns related to an aging fleet. The inquiry into the Margalla tragedy constitutes the first of its kind into a private airline’s crash since private commercial carriers emerged in the country in the 1990s; the other plane crashes have involved the national carrier. Only by making the Margalla air crash inquiry — and other air crash probes — public can we hope to determine and efficiently implement corrective measures to halt what many experts maintain are falling aviation and safety standards in an industry that has been booming because of an increase in travelling demands.

[Boomin Bomber IJ]

Shaheed is not used only for the people who die in war or conflict, etc. it is applied to a wide number of situations, including people who pass away due to plague, die by fire, drown, have a terminal illness or women who die during delivery (source=http://www.albalagh.net/qa/shaheed.shtml).

The Quran always uses the term Shaheed to mean Witness. The term that comes closest in meanings to martyrs is “Maqtooleena Fi Sabeelillah” (Those who lay their lives in the cause of Allah.)

It is about time we started believing in the Word of God above the words of men otherwise we will continue to suffer. And by the way, can anybody prove from The Quran that Hijab or Head Covering is prescribed for women?

[Muhammad Abdullah]

[Message removed by user in interest of avoiding an off-topic debate/discussion]

[Boomin Bomber IJ]

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allaah is Ever Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful”

[al-Ahzaab 33:59]

Brother,

Here is another, more appropriate translation of the same verse you have quoted above.

33:59 O Prophet! Tell your wives, your daughters, and women of the believers that they should draw loose fitting garments over their person (when in public) This is easy and proper, so that they may be recognized and not bothered. God is Absolver of imperfections, Merciful.

Even if we take the translation you have given as correct, it still says "That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed." how do you expect 'them' to be known with just the eyes uncovered? How can cloak be equal to veil?

God has given us unique faces, which are our key identifiers. If God wanted women to hide their faces then how would the above Ayat hold true? Are you trying to imply that Allah lies (Naudhubillah!)

I can go on and on but let us cut this debate right here because this is not the appropriate place for it!

[R.F.]

Interesting debate though however wrong Forum...........on the flip side the whole country has drowned with thousands dead millions shelterless, hungry, poverty stricken, innocent people loosing their lives in this devastating crash the list goes on and on; what more trying times can a nation confront, and we're here debating whether women should be veiled, chained or flogged for just being women or whatever philosophy /doctrine is being discussed, unfortunately the airplane didn't ascertain that prior to hitting the hills.

Do apologize for this outburst, somehow find it hard to stomach this preaching revolving around women vis- a - vis Pakistani male muslims in general..................numerous other pending issues that need to be dealt on a war footing at this stage......

[TAILWIND]

.....

Bro for pakistani males, islam starts and ends with women, their pardah, uriani and fahashi is their biggest problem.

[Muhammad Abdullah]

Interesting debate though however wrong Forum...........on the flip side the whole country has drowned with thousands dead millions shelterless, hungry, poverty stricken, innocent people loosing their lives in this devastating crash the list goes on and on; what more trying times can a nation confront, and we're here debating whether women should be veiled, chained or flogged for just being women or whatever philosophy /doctrine is being discussed, unfortunately the airplane didn't ascertain that prior to hitting the hills.

Do apologize for this outburst, somehow find it hard to stomach this preaching revolving around women vis- a - vis Pakistani male muslims in general..................numerous other pending issues that need to be dealt on a war footing at this stage......

Agreed. God bless Pakistan!

[Muhammad Abdullah]

Any news regarding the CVR and FDR data?

[Abbas Ali]

Religious scholars should be consulted for queries related to religion. Discussion in this topic should be kept related to aviation – thank you.

Here's recollection of technical details related to AirBlue Airbus A321-231 (AP-BJB) Karachi to Islamabad flight ED-202 July 28, 2010 accident gathered from various news sources so far.

1) The Islamabad Airport runway can be used in two directions, which means the runway has two names Runway 30 from one direction and Runway 12 from the other direction. Runway 30 is equipped with Instrument Landing System (ILS). Runway 12 is without ILS.

2) Islamabad Airport Runway 12 was active at the time of flight ED-202 accident. The aircraft would have encountered tailwind while landing on Runway 30 that’s why Runway 12 was active at that time. Aircraft usually land & take-off against the direction of wind.

3) As normal procedure for landing on Runway 12, flight ED-202 made instrument approach to Islamabad Airport Runway 30 equipped with Instrument Landing System (ILS). After establishing visual contact with Runway 30, the aircraft turned right to land from other direction of the runway i.e. Runway 12. During this procedure, the cockpit crew is required to keep runway in sight i.e. visual contact. Roughly over or after Faizabad Interchange or within 5 nautical miles of the runway the aircraft then turn left for landing on Runway 12. The AirBlue flight ED-202 did not turn left at that point. The turn should be kept within 5 nautical miles of the airport but the ill-fated aircraft made turn beyond 9 nautical miles, sources claim. The ill-fated flight ED-202 made wider turn and then probably instead of turning left towards the direction of Islamabad Airport, it turned right in the direction of Margalla Hills and crashed into Hills. During wider turn the aircraft probably entered clouds or encountered poor visibility area.

4) Seconds before impact with Margalla Hills, the flight ED-202 with lowered landing gear was seen flying at low altitude over Sector E-7 of Islamabad. The aircraft’s direction was towards Margalla Hills which were under the cover of fog/mist/clouds at that time.



5) The aircraft was at 2600 feet above main sea level which is equal to 912 feet above ground level (AGL) of Islamabad city/airport and then it climbed to 3000 feet AMSL which is equal to 1312 feet above ground level of Islamabad city/airport moments before crashing into Margalla Hills. Probably after receiving warning from aircraft’s Enhanced Ground Proximity Warning System (EGPWS), that climb during last moments was an attempt made by cockpit crew to avoid hitting hills. According to news reports, ground witnesses also heard sudden increase in engines noise before the aircraft struck hills. The lowered landing gear of aircraft might also have hindered last moments attempt by the aircraft to climb to avoid collision with Margalla Hills.

6) The hill with which flight ED-202 made impact that hill is roughly 3000 feet above ground level, according to TV channel news report. The aircraft was roughly 1312 feet above ground level of Islamabad city when it crashed into the hill.

Abbas