US Helicopters Raid in Abbottabad

[TAILWIND]

The Boeing AH-64D Apache Longbow helicopter is flown by 2 pilots, whereas it can carry 2 additional personals during an assault operation.

Correction Sir....Apache can only accomodate a crew of TWO (pilot in the rear seat and CPG (co-pilot Gunner) in the front . There is not even a space for the crew to stow thier flying kit bag what to talk of two additional persons. It is an ATTACK NOT ASSAULT helicopter.

Now few words on radar jamming and so called Black Spots
In an absurd excuse some analysts and foreign office are saying 'they' jammed the radars. Given that two blackhawk helicopters (as asumed from the wreckage) travelled inside paksitani territory for over 200 km (flying time about 50 minutes), passing near or around two fighter bases (Peshawar and Kamra) criss crossing through radars stations, entered Abbotabad valley, spend 40 minutes in action and flew back the same route. In all spending over 2 hrs 30 mins in a most densly infested military area without our radars detecting them is ABSURD.
As far as 'hilly terrain' excuse is concerned, after crossing the tribal belt, depending on from which point they crossed the border till entering Abbotabad valley, they flew over plain (as a billiard table) terrain with no masking from mountains available. One possibility is through north. But that can be ruled out as it is highly mountanous 12000 feet and above and you have to climb to cross mountain passes. More over that route would perhaps require mid air refuelling for which they again need to climb as mating with a C-130 tanker at low levels in valleys is impossible.

Even in the morning at 7 am, the Geo TV live coverage was showing a C-130 (reported to be two total) orbiting overhead Abbotabad in broad day light. It was reported that they did so continously since midnight operation started.

Blackhawk helicopters donot have any jamming capability. At the most they could have chaff or flares not jammers. For such a wide scale jamming they would have used E6 Prowler EW platform or any such dedicated hardware. Moreover you cant jam all the various types of radars over such a large area with a press of single button. And when there is jamming, there are anti jamming counter measures. Both electronic and analytical.
The air defence system is an integrated array of radars which are centrally monitored. The jammings or radar deceptions are generally localized through various means such as spot jamming, barrage jamming, spurious returns using mecahanical or other electronic means. However all such techniques alert the operator. For example if a complete sector or area radars go blank or show noise the operator would come to know that something is wrong. Similarly even in a ficticious scenario that the low flying helicopters were themselves jamming the radars, the sequence of this 'jamming' would tell the operator something is coming. Mind you these were not supersonic fighters or bombers, these were slow moving (120-130 knots) helicopters which remained in our airspace for over two and half hours.

In nut shell, if we knew they were coming, SHAME ON US and if we did not know than LAANAT. apologies for being un diplomatic.

[Abbas Ali]

A news report with some information about the problem experienced by US Black Hawk helicopter.

U.S. government officials say the helicopter destroyed during the mission in Pakistan was a newer version of the two Sikorsky UH-60 Black Hawks that were shot down during a raid in Somalia in October 1993 that killed 18 soldiers.

In Pakistan, the helicopter packed with soldiers made a "controlled but hard landing" after encountering higher-than-expected temperatures at bin Laden's compound near Islamabad, Senator Dianne Feinstein told reporters on Tuesday.

The accident was not unusual, military experts said.

The Pentagon is still investigating the problem in the bin Laden raid, but the helicopter was not damaged by enemy fire, said one defense official, who was not authorized to speak on the record. Officials said it suffered mechanical failure.

U.S. forces quickly destroyed the Black Hawk, which was built by Sikorsky Aircraft, a unit of United Technologies Corp, to avoid any of its sensitive equipment falling into enemy hands, said the defense official.

In Sunday's mission, two Black Hawk helicopters were supposed to hover over the bin Laden compound and allow Navy special operations forces to rappel to the ground.

When one of the helicopters ran into problems -- including temperatures that were 17 degrees higher than expected -- and had to land abruptly, two Boeing Co Chinook helicopters were called in to help get the U.S. troops out, said one U.S. government official, speaking on condition of anonymity.

One Chinook would have sufficed, but a second one was sent in case that helicopter also ran into trouble, said Pike.

One retired military helicopter pilot said the Black Hawk likely ran into an issue called "settling with power," when high temperatures, a heavy load and high altitudes force an unplanned landing. "Those conditions just suck the RPM out of the rotor," he said.

Sikorsky's Black Hawks, which typically have a range of 360 miles, are considered reliable and have been real workhorses during the last decade of war, said one congressional aide.

Source: www.reuters.com

[TAILWIND]

A news report ..........

One retired military helicopter pilot said the Black Hawk likely ran into an issue called "settling with power," when high temperatures, a heavy load and high altitudes force an unplanned landing. "Those conditions just suck the RPM out of the rotor," he said.

Can be a possibility but 'settling with power' is actually a 'Vortex ring state' in which the rotors are decending into their own down flow. For this to accur, three pre conditions are to be met and one of those is high rate of descent normally 250 to 300 fpm while in hover or low forward speeds. While hovering close to ground the helicopter cannot develop such a high rate of descent before it hits the ground.
This 'settling with power' is usually confused with another phenomenon which non technically is called 'settling with in sufficient power'. In this case a heavily loaded helicopter (possible in this case) in hot-and-high conditions (prevailing in Abbotabad 4000 ft AMSL and 15-20 deg C night time temp) coming in too fast with a high ROD is unable to stop the descent during landing flare and hits the ground hard.

[Abbas Ali]

^ Very informative post - thank you TAILWIND.

Found this photo published in May 4 edition of Pakistani newspaper 'Daily Times'.

The photo shows local children of Abbottabad collecting pieces/debris from field where a US military helicopter was found destroyed near the compound (visible in the background) which came under attack by US forces on May 2.



Most probably these metal pieces belong to destroyed US helicopter. If yes, then such pieces of metal can fetch high prices in hundreds of dollars if not thousands at online auction sites like eBay.

Abbas

[Sajid Khan]

Our Radars were not jammed. Actually they were stationed to search for new places to build Askari Housing 127, DHA Pahse 501 and Army Housing Scheme Phase 1018 etc.

[offspring]

thank you tailwind for the clarification on radar jammers

[TAILWIND]

Abbas the picture above (kids picking parts) shows 'our' seriousness towards the whole incident. A Foreign force has attacked our country and left. We are doing any soul searching, no forensics as how 'they' managed it. For the sake of posterity, it is vital that the debris is analysed by experts rather letting kids playing with this.

[Abbas Ali]

^ I agree.

It seems somehow some of smaller pieces like seen in the photo were not noticed or not picked up.

On May 2, hours after US operation, a number of Pakistani military vehicles was seen loaded with large pieces of US helicopter wreckage covered by some sheets. Apparently one of those vehicles was transporting pieces of rotor blades.

Abbas

[Adnan Anwar]

Guys,

The destroyed helicopter is now turning out to be a new secret stealthy helicopter which is borrowing a lot of stuff from the cancelled RAH-66 Comanche program.

The tail rotor is not the standard model BlackHawk or Sea Hawk , aviation experts are baffled to see a new tail rotor design never seen before. It seems to be a highly modified SeaHawk or a totally new Test aircraft that Navy Seal always have access too in situations like these.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ds-newsxml

[TAILWIND]

Adnan
A startling revelation. what a strange machine, never seen or heard of anything like this operational with US military. Not exactly a RAH 66 adoption. The Comanche had a shrouded tail rotor with a T tail configuration whereas this one has a low mounted stabilator. One thing however the curves and shapes of the tail structure is very unconventional and as pointed out by Adnan reveals some stealth characteristics like F-117 and B2.


This re-enforces my previous comment that this piece of wreckage required detailed analysis and research, rather than being picked by kids to play.

Shows how important the mission was for the US as they put in thier latest or as you say still experimental hardware to action.
Btw one tail rotor blade seems intact. This shows probably the tail seperated from the helicopter before hitting the ground. Otherwise if the tail rotor strikes any object while turning under power, it just disintegrates.

[Abbas Ali]

Guys, check out this photo:


Part of a damaged helicopter is seen lying near the compound after Navy SEAL commandos killed al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden in Abbottabad, Pakistan, on May 2 - Photo Source: www.armytimes.com

Related article on following link:

Link: Mission helo was secret stealth Black Hawk

Abbas

[meekal ahmed]

Does this mean that the helicopters had "stealth" capability and would not be observable on any radar?

[TAILWIND]

would not be observable on any radar?

Well for every poison there is an antidote. Nonetheless, the modern stealth technology F-117, B2 etc are very effective in evading radar detection.
This piece of equipment can be very useful in finding its radar signature and the wavelengths it reflects to develop a counter measure

[TAILWIND]

We can clearly see the tail drive shaft intact going over the wall. This clearly reflects as aleady mentioned the rotors were not running. Otherwise this long shaft rotating at a high RPM is first to fly off on slight mis-allignment.
This leads to a possible situation where the helicopter could have hard landed, demaged slightly and then destroyed by the crew while on ground.

[meekal ahmed]

Aviation Week confirms that it was a highly modified and advanced version of the venerable Black Hawk with "stealth" capabilities.

I would imagine that is the first thing the US ensured!