Emergency landing of PK770 at Milan Airport

[Amaad Lone]

Why was the captain forced to resign, even when CAA enquiry cleared him off all blame??

[riz]

oh ... thats (in the pic) Mr . Asrar Mohuddin and Zia haider Zaidi our DCE and maintenance manager.......kamran you must be the only technician lucky to perform GD or was that an OCS ?

[R.F.]

A pilot or a captain can always exercise his emergency authority that'll over ride the ATC instructions or as for that matter any one. This is clearly stated in the annals of any aviation law. Weather can pose a potentially very serious hazard and all weather radars on board are of avoidance in nature and do not advocate penetration. If the ATC declines a deviation request and it becomes eminent that severe weather exists in the flight path then a pilot is well within his rights to deviate and under NO circumstances is liable for any prosecution or penalization as long as it's justifiable.

On board a flight deck there is always team work and not a one man show, therefore regardless of who ever is the pilot flying both remain equally culpable in any form of negligence, however the ultimate responsibility remains with the commander.

These are the norms of aviation.......................

[WindShear]

With all due respect we are talking about this case & there was no team work!! The Captain didnt respond to others.
Although Capt.Ahsen is an excellent pilot and have personally flown with him what was going on his mind one can't tell that but all that was done was at his discretion.
so.........

therefore regardless of who ever is the pilot flying both remain equally culpable

doesnt apply here!

[R.F.]

I know Ahsan Rehman very well,professionally and otherwise so that's not the issue here neither am I discussing his professional acumen. What merely has been stated and if you care to look at my post closely again is that the mitigating circumstances, and the lack of team work. It is incumbent on the first officer to bring it to the commanders attention in case of any deviation from either the SOP or the safety aspect.

In plain simple words he is not alone to be blamed as the other crew members are equally involved and that includes the pilot occupying the jump seat as well. Therefore it applies here very aptly.

[TAILWIND]

A pilot or a captain can always exercise his emergency authority that'll over ride the ATC instructions or as for that matter any one. ...............On board a flight deck ................ both remain equally culpable in any form of negligence, however the ultimate responsibility remains with the commander.
These are the norms of aviation.......................

Couldnt agree more with you....Even PNF has some very important duties and he/she is not a dummy sitting during in the cockpit.

[F.K]

crew members are only culpable when they fail to alert the commander to imminent danger. however since the ultimate responsibility lies with the captain he for that reason has to bear the onus for anything that goes wrong. if the co pilot ( as well as the other senior captain occupying the j/s ) did in fact bring to his attention a serious weather hazard in the aircraft's flight path it should have factored in to the decision that he ultimately made which unfortunately was not what happened. hence the co pilot was rightly let off the hook. violating the command structure in any organization aviation in particular is grounds for outright termination. had the co pilot relieved the capt of his command on grounds of mental incapacitation that render the latter incapable of discharging duties with a sane mind it would have been next to impossible to sustain it on the ground. if he did alert the commander he cannot then be charged with negligence.

[R.F.]

NO airline will terminate a pilot on the basis of an un-lawful command being challenged name one instance that's just utter nonsense. Just by expressing your reservations meekly and quietly sitting along side watching the other guy fly you and 350 innocent lives into a hazardous situation is unheard of. Why because he's the captain and the ultimate responsibility is his and being a SIC I'm completely absolved.
In PIA the right seat is to be seen and not heard still exists which is a cultural spill over from the ex-military pilots who dominated the initial foundation years of the airline. Therefore CRM is mere lip service and treated as a regulatory requirement and nothing more. Team work does not exist and there may be a handful who may even know what it means. The rest is a ONE man show.

This is a very dangerous trend and consider this as a wake up call. In any progressive airline not with a mind set of the 60's or the 70's regardless of who the commander is the crew members remain culpable for gross negligence regardless. The commander remains ultimately responsible no doubt but in a situation where a catastrophe becomes eminent it's NOT only the left seat that pays the ultimate price.

This is an educational process that PIA is yet to experience and its up to the new generation of pilots to inculcate that it's o.k. to intervene when the situation arises and NOT to mix it with mutiny/ disrespect etc. on board.

The bottom line is I'd rather loose my job then my life if that's the case.

[F.K]

what is an unlawful command and who decides? if the commanders decision to fly thru this particular cell was so outrageously unfounded how come civil aviation absolved him in their findings. flying dangerously below the glide slope makes catastrophe inevitable hence intervention is then sustainable . you fail to recognize the circumstantial distinctions that come with the job sir , in this case it all boiled down to the co pilots gut over the captains. he did speak out his mind to alert the captain to what he THOUGHT could be potentially dangerous which in turn was dismissed by the latter. in instances like these co pilots cannot challenge the decision of the commander and if they do it is unquestionably tantamount to mutiny.
crm impresses upon the need to break communication barriers ,shouldering greater responsibility but not authority. the co pilot was responsible in bringing to the captains attention a forewarning , but it is the captain alone who decides what course of action to take since the sops and fom empower him to do so. i dont think this f/0 would have been able to salvage his job had he taken it upon him self , nor the relief pilot who was the most senior member of the crew.
obviously when ones life is at peril survival instincts dominate over everything else, but both the other crew members in this case had not expected the situation to boil over the way it did even though they felt uncomfortable with the capts decision.

[R.F.]

I don't wish to get into any long drawn debates here as my point remains. Accidents and incident investigation have revealed over the years that the company culture plays an imperative part in the proverbial chain building process prior to any untoward. The culture prevalent in PIA is that the junior colleague is neither trained nor encouraged to challenge and the left seat's word becomes the gospel.

I'm not referring to SOP's here what I'm stating is the root cause, NO FOM's can address or rectify this unless a cultural change takes place vis-a-vis training and education. This is not about flying an ILS or deviating from it, this is about inculcating a mind set that you're there as an integral part of the team and not just a mere requirement.
What seems so obvious in the event of a life threatening situation that one will not hold back is to the contrary, as evidently displayed by many an airlines where no assertive verbal measures were taken by individuals in the face of the most perilous situations resulting in loss of precious lives, costly equipment and I quote "Korean airlines" as one of them. Yet another company culture scenario with very high authority gradients where meek first officers and or captains not assertively speaking their minds became a part of the statistics today.

What I'm stating has nothing to do with a blame game but rather with the over all prevailing culture which I know ONLY too well, and perhaps some day realization will dawn that it's time for a change. Just the mere fact that one has been absolved by the regulatory authority means very less as they remain subservient to the airline rather then playing the expected role of a watch dog which is common knowledge.

Like stated earlier it's up to the new generation pilots to break this chain and I fully comprehend that it may mean treading on thin ice but look at it from another angle that some day it may save your life and the lives of hundreds of others including the lives of our near and dear ones.

I hope it makes sense ...............................however your inputs /points are appreciated...........

[F.K]

certainly does make sense to me but as goes the saying that the snow must always melt at the top. the young generation of pilots are too weary of their inexperience to break the mold in an organization that as u suggest has a rigid command structure. however i feel that the crm philosophy should be incorporated not just in terms of rhetoric but in actual practice to ensure safety without undermining the supremacy of the chain of command. the crm discipline can take better effect only when the pilots are educated, receptive and pliant to change. i only hope that the selection criteria of pilots in pia continues to get better with each induction for flight safety in the long run.