Kirmani on CNBC

Moin · Post by **Moin** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:39 pm

Don't you know how PIA loves 'looking into' new types of a/c? They've been 'looking into' the 744 for over 10 years now. They were 'looking into' the A340 at the time they got the first A310's and over 10 years later they don't get the A340 but get the 777's.

Looking into is the specialisation of their fleet planning department and both Airbus and Boeing know that theres no point in wooing airlines like PIA, hence they don't bother approaching PIA of their own accord. They know how indecisive and tardy their decisions are. They much prefer cosying upto carriers like EK, QR, SIA, EY, LH, MAS, QF, VS, JAL, ANA, CX etc with whom they have a constant business relationship. PIA is only there on a need to know basis.

AirBlue · Post by **AirBlue** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:41 pm

Moin wrote:Don't you know how PIA loves 'looking into' new types of a/c? They've been 'looking into' the 744 for over 10 years now. They were 'looking into' the A340 at the time they got the first A310's and over 10 years later they don't get the A340 but get the 777's.
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Hahah nicely said ! I guess PIA will take its own sweet time. After the ATRs are delivered, getting rid of the B742 will be inplace. Then in about 5 years or so some thing else will enter. Oh wait, 5 years after all the B777s are delievered and thier problems have been solved.

behramjee · Post by **behramjee** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:20 am

PIA are considering getting 744 from Malaysian, I think you did not visit the said website to further delve into the topic.

I dont know for sure how many B 744s MAS have, but it would no serve PIA no purpose if only 1-2 are leased...they need minimum 4 to justify this new type of an aircraft to be integrated into its fleet because millions of ruppees will be spent re-training its cockpit/cabin/engineering crews + refurbishing the aircraft to their specifications + hiring extra crew for these additional aircraft.

I dont think so MAS can afford to lease out 4 B 744s from their fleet, therefore probably 2 might come from MAS and then PIA should ensure that the other 2 it leases from elsewhere must have the same engine familiarities that the MAS jumbos have to make life easier for their ground engineers.

Jacobin777 · Post by **Jacobin777** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 8:21 am

behramjee wrote:
PIA are considering getting 744 from Malaysian, I think you did not visit the said website to further delve into the topic.
I dont know for sure how many B 744s MAS have, but it would no serve PIA no purpose if only 1-2 are leased...they need minimum 4 to justify this new type of an aircraft to be integrated into its fleet because millions of ruppees will be spent re-training its cockpit/cabin/engineering crews + refurbishing the aircraft to their specifications + hiring extra crew for these additional aircraft.

I dont think so MAS can afford to lease out 4 B 744s from their fleet, therefore probably 2 might come from MAS and then PIA should ensure that the other 2 it leases from elsewhere must have the same engine familiarities that the MAS jumbos have to make life easier for their ground engineers.

behramjee..what about PK getting a few of SQ's 744's which they plan on retiring soon?...

Maybe they can do a deal via leasing company..at least those 744's will be in great condition...with SQ's 744's having P&W engines, it might fit into the scheme of things....

Moin · Post by **Moin** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:13 pm

Well both AI and El Al got 744's from SIA so the chances of SIA parting with them is greater.

Jacobin777 · Post by **Jacobin777** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:33 am

Moin wrote:Well both AI and El Al got 744's from SIA so the chances of SIA parting with them is greater.

SQ will keep their 744's for a bit longer than expected because of the A380 delays, but given the recent uptake of their A380 options (as well as the B773ER's), I see SQ eventually getting rid of all of their passenger 744's....

PK could use some of the 744's....actually, I would rather see PK get rid of all their old 747s and replace them with 773ER's...I think the 748 would be useful only on a couple of routes and wouldn't provide the flexibility PK needs..

With a range of 8,000-8,500nm (and 210-250 pax)...I think the 787-8 would be really good fit for PK....the 787-9 would be a bit too big..

nutsforplanes · Post by **nutsforplanes** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 11:48 am

Jacobin777:

With a range of 8,000-8,500nm (and 210-250 pax)...I think the 787-8 would be really good fit for PK....the 787-9 would be a bit too big..

I think a mix of 787-8 and 787-3 would be a better fit. PIA desperately needs a replacement of A300. 787-3 specs are strikingly similar to the A300. 787-3 would nicely serve the domestic and regional routes and 787-8 covering the European and Far Eastern routes. However, with 787 delivery slots not available till 2012 (unless boeing starts a second production line) I dont see PIA getting them before 2013. By that time A310's would be almost 20 years old.

TK's statement on 744 strikes me as odd. The process of refurbishing 747 fleet, means they will be around for a while. So when are PIA looking to get the 744's?

TAILWIND · Post by **TAILWIND** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:37 pm

I watched current Chairman on CNBC and former MD Mr Awan on Business Plus. Here are few pertinenet questions:

It transpired in the discussion with former MD that at the time PIA purchased new 777 for around 137 million $ a piece, PIA was getting used (less than a year) 747-400s for around 20-25 m $ (post 9/11 period). However the T7s were prefered ONE because PIA management decided to go for new planes over used beacuse of ADDED benifets like warranties, bank loans and concessions etc etc. TWO PIA was planning for non-stop operations to North America.

Now the question is..........

If this is true, then no matter how fuel efficient the T7s are as compared with 747-400s, the cost offset is too much to be ignored. Though we have the benifet of hindsight, with the non stop ops out of the window due to security concerns, was it (T7 over much cheaper 747-400) a prudent option???????

And if (as per Mr Kirmani on CNBC) PIA is looking for 747-400s now, then what was the justification of buying T7s at such a huge cost (almost whole PIA fleet pledged)

One last issue, given that MDs (both Mr Awan and Kirmani) are pure businessmen with no airlione background, what about the professionals in PIA senior management, If i am not wrong people in corporate planning, engineering management and finanace etc are all airline professionals. Why and cant they advise the so-called non preofessional MDs and Chairman??????

Jacobin777 · Post by **Jacobin777** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:18 pm

nutsforplanes wrote:Jacobin777:

With a range of 8,000-8,500nm (and 210-250 pax)...I think the 787-8 would be really good fit for PK....the 787-9 would be a bit too big..
I think a mix of 787-8 and 787-3 would be a better fit. PIA desperately needs a replacement of A300. 787-3 specs are strikingly similar to the A300. 787-3 would nicely serve the domestic and regional routes and 787-8 covering the European and Far Eastern routes. However, with 787 delivery slots not available till 2012 (unless boeing starts a second production line) I dont see PIA getting them before 2013. By that time A310's would be almost 20 years old.

TK's statement on 744 strikes me as odd. The process of refurbishing 747 fleet, means they will be around for a while. So when are PIA looking to get the 744's?

I was going to add the 787-3 also, but it seems besides the Japanes carriers NH/JL, which will be using the 787-3 for high-density domestic flights, it doesn't seem as if too many of the carriers are interested in the 787-3 (yet)

I agree that the 787-3 would be great for intra-Asia routes, but the seat count might be a bit too high...of course, that could be traded off for cargo and added range (it would be nice to know what the seat breakdown is for PK's A310's and A300's)

TAILWIND wrote:I watched current Chairman on CNBC and former MD Mr Awan on Business Plus. Here are few pertinenet questions:

It transpired in the discussion with former MD that at the time PIA purchased new 777 for around 137 million $ a piece, PIA was getting used (less than a year) 747-400s for around 20-25 m $ (post 9/11 period). However the T7s were prefered ONE because PIA management decided to go for new planes over used beacuse of ADDED benifets like warranties, bank loans and concessions etc etc. TWO PIA was planning for non-stop operations to North America.

Now the question is..........

If this is true, then no matter how fuel efficient the T7s are as compared with 747-400s, the cost offset is too much to be ignored. Though we have the benifet of hindsight, with the non stop ops out of the window due to security concerns, was it (T7 over much cheaper 747-400) a prudent option???????

And if (as per Mr Kirmani on CNBC) PIA is looking for 747-400s now, then what was the justification of buying T7s at such a huge cost (almost whole PIA fleet pledged)

One last issue, given that MDs (both Mr Awan and Kirmani) are pure businessmen with no airlione background, what about the professionals in PIA senior management, If i am not wrong people in corporate planning, engineering management and finanace etc are all airline professionals. Why and cant they advise the so-called non preofessional MDs and Chairman??????

Not only were there advantages as you mentioned, but PK couldn't fly all those 747's to places such as YYZ, ORD, etc....there would have been no use what so ever flying 1/2-2/3 empty 744's which would have costed a fortune to fly......

A mix of B777's and A330's would have been good...but I think PK should now go for the 787's.....

nutsforplanes · Post by **nutsforplanes** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:43 pm

Jacobin777 wrote:

(it would be nice to know what the seat breakdown is for PK's A310's and A300's)

A310: 190
A300: 266

TAILWIND wrote:

And if (as per Mr Kirmani on CNBC) PIA is looking for 747-400s now, then what was the justification of buying T7s at such a huge cost (almost whole PIA fleet pledged)

You are correct in you assertion. However, back in the late 90's PIA were looking to replace those CP Air junks. But as always financing was a problem. In came the CX 743's. 9-11 changed all that. US Exim Bank financing now available PIA turned to brand new boeings.

Jacobin777 · Post by **Jacobin777** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:12 am

nutsforplanes wrote:Jacobin777 wrote:
(it would be nice to know what the seat breakdown is for PK's A310's and A300's)
A310: 190
A300: 266

Thanks for the numbers....

It seems as if the B787-3 indeed might be a very good replacement then for the A300's....

behramjee · Post by **behramjee** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 5:40 am

A300: 266

i recall seeing a 1999 PIA calendar where it says that their AB4s seat 240 pax in a 2 class layout and not 266?!

I dont think so any airline's A 300 seats 266 pax in a 2 class layout.

TGs seat 235, KU 230, SV (dont know), IR (dont know), LH 260 (regional layout as its mainly used on high density short haul domestic/EU routes).

Abbas Ali · Post by **Abbas Ali** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:20 am

According to an old PIA basic facts booklet and a 1990s magazine article:

PIA Airbus A300B4-203
Total Seats: 251 in two class layout (20 First Class + 231 Economy Class)

nutsforplanes · Post by **nutsforplanes** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 7:25 am

Abbas Ali wrote:

According to an old PIA basic facts booklet and a 1990s magazine article:

PIA Airbus A300B4-203
Total Seats: 251 in two class layout (20 First Class + 231 Economy Class)

Actually I checked its 260. Back in 2002-2004 I was making Khi-Lhe-Khi trip twice a month. Used to write all the irrelevant info on my used flight coupons. Still have them

. Infact the AP-BB.. series A/C used to 9-have abreast seating.

Jacobin777 · Post by **Jacobin777** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:48 pm

Regardless of 250-266..those numbers are trivial..again, PK could adjust range/cargo if they went with the B787-3...