EU to keep a "watchful eye" on PIA

[Charliedelta11]

Not a single employee in PIA is sincere and honest to his work.whether they are pilots, engineers, cabin crew etc etc.....

what the hell do u mean by that ? My father is a pilot in PIA..are u saying hes not honest or sincere with his work ? had that been the case EMIRATES AND ALL THESE AIRLINES U ARE TALKING ABOUT WOULD HAVE NEVER TAKEN IN ANY OF PIA'S PILOTS ...the reason behind their employing them isthat PIA's pilots are prfoessionals and hard working..howcan u blatantly accuse them of things u probably have no knowledge of ? and the fact that they manage to get these aircraft that are usually not in a technically sound condition out of terrible problems and land safely shows they ARE SINCERE AND HONEST WITH THEIR WORK...

next time watch what ur saying


raihans..BEU is the presidential aircraft...i checked..

[smarties]

I know a few PIA pilots that have tried hard to get into Emirates, but they have been unsuccessful. Emirates and other gulf carriers now mainly hire pilots with foreign nationality or people from their own country.

[nutsforplanes]

Insider wrote:

Not a single employee in PIA is sincere and honest to his work.whether they are pilots, engineers, cabin crew etc etc.....

.....people say that PIA created Emirates, Air malta and blah blah blah.......its all crap PIA never created these airlines....

What do you know about the creation of Air Malta, Emirates and even Singapore Airlines.

Kindly refrain from making such sweeping statements. Most of the forum members here are either part of or have near kin who are part of PIA. You or anybody else do not have the right to assault their integrity.

Coming back to the topic. I seriously question the role of CAA in this whole affair. What have their inspectors been upto? Why have they issued air-worthiness certificates for the said A/C's. Some outside body slapping PIA with penalties is a slap on the face of CAA.

Jumping ship has been part and parcel of PIA since the early 70's. It happened when pilots and engineers left for SIA, Royal Jordaninan, Saudi Arabian Emirates etc. Most of the airlines have always paid better then PIA, why the sudden exodus. It almost seems that the engineers who got trained on the 777's were waiting to jump ship as soon as they got their 777 training. Is the problem, lack of engineering expertise or lack of parts? Couple of years back most of the A300's were grounded because of lack of parts. Is the same problem surfacing again.

PIA pilots and engineers(flight and ground) have always been thorough professionals. Going 'by the book' has never been part of PIA's mindset. But compromising safety is another matter.

[FULLTHRUST]

I seriously question the role of CAA in this whole affair. What have their inspectors been upto? Why have they issued air-worthiness certificates for the said A/C's. Some outside body slapping PIA with penalties is a slap on the face of CAA.

I 100% agree with you.

The Certificate of Airworthiness, commonly known as C of A, is issued at the conclusion of a major Base Maintenance check. It is good till the next major grounding. In between, during the service the aircraft undergoes a lot of situations in which its C of A remains valid. The CAA airworthiness surveyors SHOULD be held RESPONSIBLE for this mess. The CAA Pak is a) understaffed....PIA Pilots and Engineers have been going to CAA on deputations to bridge the gap. I would say, there is NOBODY, I repeat NOBODY in CAA (both Airworthiness & Flight Standards) who is MORE capable than any of PIA pilot or engineer. PIA pilots and engineers are RATED and carry a lot of HANDS-ON experience. CAA should be held equally responsible for the current situation.

On the other hand, due to the recent 777 inductions the UAE carriers got the trained breed free of cost, they saved their money on the training, and got the right human resources. Thus creating a vacuum in PIA. This situation is quite grave, and I have no clue how the present management would handle this.

Is the problem, lack of engineering expertise or lack of parts? Couple of years back most of the A300's were grounded because of lack of parts. Is the same problem surfacing again.

The inventory control has been a problem in PIA since ages. They dont have the proper human resources to do that. They make wild guesses to order parts. The same is the situation with PW engines these days. It has been a practice in PIA to order parts on AOG basis. (cost*4)

The engineering expertise is REALLY a problem now. Started 2-3 years back, as they got trained on 777, they went straight to Emirates, as Emirates is the biggest buyer of 777 trained engineers in the region. What they do is, a little licence conversion exam, and the engineer is ready to certify Emirates planes.

Rectification......
a) Increase pay & allowances...at par with regional airlines (for atleast pilots & engineers)
b) Hire proper human resources, willing to work
c) Improve training standards at PIA training centre.
d) Immediately fire HARAMKHOR lot, which is in abundance in PIA.

[FULLTHRUST]

I just learnt, a technician got killed while charging a main wheel of B737, near washing bay at KHI. The tyre bursted blowing him into pieces. Whose fault is that, shortage, under-trained, lack of proper tools, haste or what. This was happened around a month ago.

[AM]

Full Thrust and Nutsforplanes your analysis is prompt , concise and to the point and it must be appreciated nevertheless the top management fails to recognize this and is probably bent on getting work done with brute pressure of management.

The recent mess with EU SAFA was something which was being pointed out by sincere engineering and ops people since last two years.But again maybe its a blessing in disguise as it was high time the matter was higlighted .Believe me there is no dearth of jobs for trained aircraft engineers and pilots if PIA does not want them in fact PIA is refusing thier resignation appeals. So if management wants them it should compensate them as per industry standard else it wont get work out of them per force.
Incidently the matter has been highlighted in the SAFA meeting in Brussels with CAA/PIA and SAFA officials and they were surprised at the low wages PIA was giving to its trained personnel.

[FULLTHRUST]

Wake up guys, please wake up..............do something.........PIA is a NATIONAL ASSET, please dont ruin it.

[nutsforplanes]

Wake up guys, please wake up..............do something.........PIA is a NATIONAL ASSET, please dont ruin it.

I think "Hakumat-e-Pakistan's" priorities lie somewhere else. To give a few examples.

a) During the recent floodings the Rann Pathani bridge was washed away. It was shocking to hear that there is only one railway track linking Karachi to the rest of the country...And that too build during the days of the Raj. Rail link to Karachi was cut-off for two weeks. Yet the H'nable Minister of Railways invites tender for a high speed train running between Lhe-Isl.

b) Check out the pandimonium created at Isl airport whenever two widebodies dock at the same time. I have friends who avoid Isl airport like a plague. The Hakumat has been trying to build the new airport for the past fifteen years. Then you see ads in the newspaper for a luxury living, shopping complex in Isl with a 7-star hotel. What the heck is a 7-star hotel.

Development is good, but please get your priorities in order

[AM]

Full thrust regarding your reporting of an incident , There was an unfortunate accident two months ago AP-BEH in which high pressure nitrogen caused the wheel hub disintegration and fatal injuries to ayoung technician. I believe CAA has completed its inquiry and reasons are not lack of spares but shortage of trained technicians was one of the causes due to the outflow of trained expertese. The procedure is no doubt intricate and has a industry record of fatal acccidents.In 1999 KLM lost an engineer while a similar gauge was underreading the pressure being sent to wheels.In 1994 Air India B747 also encountered wheel hub burst as well as Air Canada in 1986. In 1979 a PIA B707 at Damascus was udergoing similar maintenance when the hub disintegrated and the PIA engineer died on the spot. A little known fact in which Boeing acknowledged the dangers due to its poor design .

As for the comments in earlier pages differentiating between the standards of AME licence by CAA and flying crew standards by ops .Believe me I know too much of both departments to comment that your remarks were not justified and seemed a bit biased.There are good hardworking dedicated proffesionals on both sides and you cant judge the screening process of one qualification wheras declaring the other as foolproof .I have examples on both sides ,believe me nothing is foolproof and its true for pilots as well as engineers. But the fact is that non standard people are automatically screened out as the job requirement is such that only capable can survive. I value the comments of all and your participation is always very enlightening likewise there is never an intention to offend any member .

The so called SAFA EU issue is partially due to PIA but there seem to be other objectives.EU has offered to provid top inspectors and a very very handsome package on PIAs bill to clear its aircraft.If you have an access to the SAFA checklist,believe me it hardly has any technical system of aircraft to verify.It focusses solely on cabin items,cabin crew emergency items and crew documents.They have also mentioned fuel spillages from PIA aircraft while refuelling.Now technically even if all the auto fuel systems are unservicable any person who is refuelling must know how to fuel the aircraft and whwnever fuel spillage has occured it was always being done by handling agents who belong to a european airline agency.So one has to ponder over the reasons for this current hue and cry by SAFA.

[zerbaer]

Re AM comments

As knowledgeable as AM appears & claims to be, defending 2+2=3 or 6-2=8, makes it all zero & hopeless if one was expecting any professional integrity to show in this time of adversity for the company which, probably is employing many who frequent this site.

“Shortage of trained technicians was one of the causes…” will CAA, FAA or any other regulatory body accept this as legitimate reason to grant an operator exemption from mandatory airworthiness requirements! It is not just the EU. CAA (Pak) record on serious airworthiness deficiencies of PK fleet would be found out rageous by any sane person, let alone an aviation professional. It is immaterial in the end how & why CAA got silenced.

Regarding the “so called SAFA EU issue…” If you have their check list, please make it available for the rest of us lay persons on this forum to see whether airworthiness has anything to do with it or not. If not, then PK and others have a very strong case to take EU to task. If fuel spillage is not PK responsibility, then someone should be taken to court for the consequences/damages being suffered by PIA due to misplaced EU actions.

PK Engg. was at one time FAA & CAA (UK) approved, but failed to renew – Some are strange enough to suggest that the approvals were not renewed due to the fees involved! On basis of FAA or CAA (UK) approvals getting EASA 145 approval is simple, fast and in-expensive process. However, PK spent some years and tons of money to ‘achieve’ EASA 145 maintenance approval. PIA has an MOE (maint. organization exposition) approved by EASA and CAA (Pak). Your maintenance procedures are not only enshrined in it, but you are checked according to that. Please do us all & yourself a big favour and study the MOE that replaced PK’s earlier (highly refined) Company/Engg Exposition Manual.

[FULLTHRUST]

Your maintenance procedures are not only enshrined in it, but you are checked according to that

If that was the case why the brake assemlies of 777 were being washed with jet fuel? Could you please answer that, and the director engineering used to sit in the shop and watch the whole procedure, even after that those assemblies caught fire, they will, till the time proper procedures are being followed.

No, at certain times, nothing is being followed, CHALO CHALO JAHAZ KO DHAKKA DO BAHAR. That is your maintenance. brother zerbaer

Do you guys remember AP-BBV, LHE-KHI sector, rear pressure bulkhead was blown away. Cockpit crew did a great job bringing BBV in one piece back to ground, same was the case with that, maintenance did not have a look for corrosion, before it was rolled out from base maint.!!!!!!!!!
CHALO CHALO JAHAZ KO DHAKKA DO BAHAR.

study the MOE that replaced PK’s earlier (highly refined) Company/Engg Exposition Manual.

You need highly refined peopel to study and implement that document, people like Chief Engineers, BABAR, S.U.ZAMAN, SHAIKH AFTAB, LAEEQ-UR-REHMAN, are not available these days, everything is done on ADHOCISM. What do you expect from the present lot.

[CombiFan]

I agree with Fullthrust, its about the people, in addition to the fine people mentioned above, who all retired after serving the airline with distinction, there is a whole generation of equally good if not better AEs that left PIA for greener pastures. I am sure if people like K.M. Ali, Qadeer Mansoor, Adnan Ghani, Chughtai, Abdullah Usman, Hadi Subhani, Javed Kazim, Qazi, .....(its a long list), were still with PIA, this type of situation would not have arisen.
The Arabian airlines are here to stay, PIA management will have to change its attitude and try to retain the best people.
I dont know if PIA made Emirates, AirMalta...and blah blah, but I do know that PIA maintenance was good enough to win those contracts at that time and had an ample strength and depth in the Engineering Department to spare quality personnel for the jobs.
Here is what needs to be done immediately:
1. Get rid of all Airforce guys in the Engineering Department.
2. Increase salary of muliti qualified Engineers to International levels.
3. Bring in KM Ali or Abdullah Usman as SVP Engineering.
4. Extensively hire Trainee Engineers and start an extensive training program.

Lots more to be done but it would be premature to mention it now, as it wont be relevant if above are not done first.

[trikko]

Well i somehow support to some extent, what Insider have stated in his post reply. I dont agree that all the employees are not honest and loyal but the truth is that one small or big dirty fish gives the airline a bad name. The CAA only functions when external authorities pressurized them otherwise they have no clue whats happening around them.

I cleraly remember in 2001, the CAA investigation team or accident analysis team used to be head by a ex-Army Aviaiton pilot. the gentleman had no clue about the Stopways or other aviation related stuff.

In past 10 years the morale of PIA employees have gone very down, they have alot of pressure but little resources to work with.

I feel sorry for the airline, the change can only be brought in by the employees and they have to be honest and dedicated and this goes for everyone. There was a time when PIA used to dictate CAA what to do and now the external resources are dictating CAA.

One should realize that both CAA and PIA are part of the government and they come under the same Ministry so instead of cutting each other throats........they should help each other to built a good airline.

[AM]

Appreciating so many remarks by members serves the spirit of this forum and gives all some food for thought. Zerbaer my intention is never to defend anything and any such impression given on my part is unintentional. Full thrust ,B777 wheel isssues was something totally different and requires a new thread of discussion.Combifan,your recommendations are precisely what is required .Get rid of outsiders.Finally trikko that CAA army aviation guy is still holding fast in CAA in an enhanced position.

[FULLTHRUST]

Dear AM, I was just refering to zerbaer's post about the procedures laid down in Company Exposition Manual/ MOE, sitting in the Engine shop where the Brake Assy's are repaired, MR. Mukhtar Qazi, (Ex-CHief Engineer Power Plant) Director Engineering, thinking by himself, why the 777 brakes are catching fire on landings!!!!!!!! Later on he resigned PIA. Had some heart problem.

He could'nt figure it out, till the manufacturer, CAA UK, and in turn CAA PAk got involved.

So my point was that, one can make tons of MOE/Expositon Manual materials, PIA need proper human resources and then LOGISTICS to perform.

Bringing in EASA or FAA or CAA UK procedures or clearance or approvals does not imply that Limping PIA Engineering is upto the mark.

There is NO LEADERSHIP there and at the same time Ex-airforce has proven degradation in the past 5-7 years, hence NO leadership.