Is it time for PIA to say good bye to B777s? Replacement?

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GEnx
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Is it time for PIA to say good bye to B777s? Replacement?

Post by GEnx »

https://aviationgeeks.pk/blog/2017/12/2 ... d-for-pia/

PIA took delivery of the first of its total eight ordered Boeing 777s in January 2004. These aircraft were inducted as a replacement for aging Airbus A300B4s and Boeing 747s. These aircraft enabled PIA to launch non-stop flights to North American destinations. In fact, PIA is the first airline on the globe to take delivery of the ultra-long-range Boeing 777-200LR variant. Today, PIA has a strong fleet of 12 Boeing 777s comprising 3 different variants. Boeing 777 is no doubt a technological leap from the aircraft it replaced. After more than two decades of entering service, it is still a famous wide-body jet around the world and many successful airlines are operating this type.

However, the induction of Boeing 777 has not proved to be a game changer for PIA. And the airline’s financial performance has been dwindling continuously over the years. There are numerous reasons for this obviously. One of them has been improper fleet planning.

Many of us already know that Boeing 777s are designed to perform optimally on long-haul flights. And since PIA uses them on short segments quite often, it causes a surge in maintenance expenses of the airline due to more frequent engine overhauls. Many people opine that PIA should only operate Boeing 777s on long-haul routes. However, it is not really that simple due to the following reasons.

Airline Network
Firstly, let us analyze PIA’s network. All routes of PIA are of only up to 8 hours of flight time except for the ones to Toronto. PIA operates flights to one North-American and around six European destinations. Only Boeing 777s are capable of operating these flights in PIA. However, the loads and frequencies on these flights are not very impressive except those to Toronto, Manchester, and London. On other routes, Boeing 777s are offering more than the required capacity.

Majority of the routes of PIA are domestic and regional. Among these, many routes require larger aircraft than A320s. Therefore, Boeing 777s have to be used quite often.

Range
Boeing 777 family aircraft are truly capable of ultra-long-haul flying. however, PIA has only one such destination to serve. Long range aircrafts have higher Maximum Take Off Weights (MTOW) which requires powerful engines, larger wings, more fuel carrying capacity and more structural reinforcements to withstand heavier loads and stresses during flight. This contributes to the overall weight of the aircraft. Hence, the long-range aircraft are not much efficient when operated on short and medium range flights. Such is the case with Boeing 777. They are optimized for ultra-long-haul routes, but are heavier on medium-haul routes and especially on short-haul routes, which comprise the majority of the network of PIA. So, PIA cannot simply dedicate all Boeing 777s to long-haul flights because there are not many of such routes and is forced to fly them on domestic and regional flights which do not require extra range.

Cabin
It is a fact that long-haul aircraft cabins are not as much densely configured as the short-haul ones. They have fewer seats per cabin floor area as they are meant to fly on longer routes. Using them on short routes results in an inefficient utilization of cabin floor area. Hence lesser revenue and more losses. Another factor that contributes to the inefficient usage of B777 by PIA is that the fleet cabin is configured in a 9-abreast layout. While, most of the other operators have switched to the 10-abreast configuration (Emirates, American Airlines, Saudi Airlines and many more).

As an example, the only B777 (-300ER) in PIA fleet with 10-abreast seating layout is AP-BMS, equipped with 442 seats while the rest of the -300ERs have 393 seats. This puts PIA at a disadvantage with higher operating cost per seat on these aircraft. Out-dated IFE (In-Flight Entertainment) is also a turn-off for a majority of the passengers.

Numbers in fleet
The number of Boeing 777s in PIA’s fleet is also a major point of concern. The airline has more Boeing 777s than small Airbus A320s (12 vs 11). This is a very unproportioned mix between narrow body and wide body aircrafts. So, the airline is forced to use a majority of the wide-body B777s on medium-haul and short haul segments, where PIA needs larger narrow-body jets like Airbus A321 or smaller wide-body jets like Airbus A330. In fact, PIA has more Boeing 777s than its requirement. And yet the airline is continuously adding more of these aircrafts which, in my opinion, is not a good option.

Capability gap
There is a huge gap between the 78 ton MTOW A320 and 297 ton MTOW B777-200ER. And PIA has no suitable aircraft in between. So, there are many routes where A320s are too small, but B777s are too large. And, PIA is forced to operate either smaller A320s and give up some of its revenue-making opportunity or use larger B777s which are way too much for that route. This gap has increased even further since the Airbus A310s are taken out of service. For example, PIA had been operating flights to Beijing, Kuala Lumpur, Tokyo and few European destinations using 207-seat A310s. But now, the airline can only operate larger Boeing 777s on these routes as the A320s have insufficient range.

In my next post, I will shed some light on a possible alternative which makes more sense for PIA than the addition of more Boeing 777s.

No aircraft is good or bad by itself. It all depends on the requirements, usage and the business model of the airline using it. Boeing 777 has been the backbone of many successful airlines around the globe. Why? Because it suits the network and operational requirements, as well as the business model of those airlines. While for PIA, it does not. I would say that PIA does not need Boeing 777s. These are way too much for this airline or I should say “Too Hot To Handle….!”
Amaad Lone
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Re: Is it time for PIA to say good bye to B777s? Replacement?

Post by Amaad Lone »

Its not time to say good bye to the 777, ITS TIME TO SAY GOOD BYE.

The airline is bankrupt with no chance of revival.
In my next post, I will shed some light on a possible alternative which makes more sense for PIA than the addition of more Boeing 777s.

Please don't you are not writing anything new.
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Mansoor Mela
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Re: Is it time for PIA to say good bye to B777s? Replacement?

Post by Mansoor Mela »

PIA is forever. It maybe sick now but it will be there as long as Pakistan is. Which is forever Inshallah.
All we need to do is kick out the Arabs.
baberblues
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Re: Is it time for PIA to say good bye to B777s? Replacement?

Post by baberblues »

Mansoor Mela wrote: Thu May 10, 2018 3:29 pm PIA is forever. It maybe sick now but it will be there as long as Pakistan is. Which is forever Inshallah.
All we need to do is kick out the Arabs.
You keep bashing on about the Arabs. The Arabs did not cause the demise of PIA. Pakistani's did.

PIA is a lost cause, apart from the elderly, not many people fly PIA anymore. Would you fly PIA in the state that it is today compared to the middle eastern carriers who will beat PIA on price, service, entertainment, catering and so fourth.

The ME + TK provide safer travel to the public and I for one along with many welcome more flights to pakistan!
Mansoor Mela
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Re: Is it time for PIA to say good bye to B777s? Replacement?

Post by Mansoor Mela »

You just see it from consumer's point of view. I see it from a national point of view.
As a consumer I would be happy with cheap goods or services but on the principle of fair trade you have to look beyond your pocket.
Imported services are just like imported goods as far as GDP is concerned. Why do we not allow duty free tractors and cars and other goods, surely a much larger percentage of population will benefit if they have access to superior John Deere travtors compared to Millat and Al Ghazi.
The Arabs have provided 42 billion dollars in direct subsidies to their airlines which enables them to dump capacity in countries such as Pakistan. Even US airlines are crying foul. They should be paying extra taxes on passengers they carry beyond their hubs.
GEnx
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Re: Is it time for PIA to say good bye to B777s? Replacement?

Post by GEnx »

Please don't you are not writing anything new.
[/quote]
The text has been taken from an article. Link at the top of the post.
Amaad Lone
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Re: Is it time for PIA to say good bye to B777s? Replacement?

Post by Amaad Lone »

What article??

Which magazine?? Looks like a website where people write with no real aviation expertise much like History of PIA

Emirates has a 140 777-300ERs and operates them from 1 hour flight to 3 hour flights to 14 hour flights.

777 is an amazing aircraft and has nothing to do with PIA decline.

Yes we need a 250 seater between the 777 and A320 but which aircraft and for which route.

The person who wrote the so called article is an idiot.
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Mansoor Mela
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Re: Is it time for PIA to say good bye to B777s? Replacement?

Post by Mansoor Mela »

Mr. Lone, take it easy on the kid. He is not an idiot. If you dont like his article then please read mine titled 'What is the problem with pia anyway '. It was published in 2015. You can google it.
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Re: Is it time for PIA to say good bye to B777s? Replacement?

Post by Ammar »

Some members seem to reiterate the need to sell the hotels in USA and France or to sell PIA once and for all by creating new threads every month and mentioning it in comments on every thread, but get offended when an article they disagree with is debated.

And I agree with the member Mansoor Mela, Arabs have played a part in the downfall of PIA. Even if the main reason for the decline is PIAs own fault, there's no doubt the Arabs have sped that up greatly.
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GEnx
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Re: Is it time for PIA to say good bye to B777s? Replacement?

Post by GEnx »

Amaad Lone wrote: Thu May 10, 2018 5:23 pm What article??

Which magazine?? Looks like a website where people write with no real aviation expertise much like History of PIA

Emirates has a 140 777-300ERs and operates them from 1 hour flight to 3 hour flights to 14 hour flights.

777 is an amazing aircraft and has nothing to do with PIA decline.

Yes we need a 250 seater between the 777 and A320 but which aircraft and for which route.

The person who wrote the so called article is an idiot.
That idiot is actually me. Wrote this some time ago. Just shared here for the sake of discussion and having views of others about the topic. Secondly, everyone has right to have his/her opinion. And others may agree or disagree. But there should be a better way to disagree than insulting. There is a difference between opinion and fact. I might be wrong or right. That's why people discuss. And we have forums for healthy discussions.
Pakistan-1
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Re: Is it time for PIA to say good bye to B777s? Replacement?

Post by Pakistan-1 »

Emirates wastes their 777s most of their planes don’t last beyond 15 to 16 years because of them reaching the cycle limit rapidly
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GEnx
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Re: Is it time for PIA to say good bye to B777s? Replacement?

Post by GEnx »

Emirates has a fairly large long-haul network. They can afford to fly them on short, medium and long-range routes. But, if we look at the network of PIA, there is only a single genuine long-haul route (PK to Toronto). The rest of the routes can be served even by let's say the A321LR. Also, there is a difference between Emirates and PIA. Emirates operate through its Dubai hub. Majority of the passengers are transit passengers. Then, they have better utilization of cabin-space due to 10-abreast seating and still, people are satisfied bcz of better IFE and services. Also, B777 has good potential to carry additional belly cargo and Emirates utilizes this capability in a very efficient manner. They earn a lot of revenue by selling additional block space for cargo on almost every flight. They are utilizing the aircraft in a very efficient manner. The circumstances allow them to do so. PIA should have a smaller aircraft with lesser range and MTOW. It will help improving frequencies too. At least, PIA does not need 12 777s. Numbers should be reduced. And the replacement can be done gradually in phases. In the next decade, 777s will be turning 20 and will need to be replaced.
Also, according to leeham,
"There is more of a secondary market for Airbus A330s than Boeing 777s. This is because the 777 is larger, used on longer flights, and the A330 is often used in regional services, such as intra-Asia. Indeed, Airbus says the average flight of the A330 is only around 2,000 miles—less than the distance from New York to Los Angeles.”'
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Re: Is it time for PIA to say good bye to B777s? Replacement?

Post by ShahMt777 »

I believe that major problem for PIA isn,t the Boeing 777 but lack of fleet planning, as in many african and south american airlines have been using it and have retransformed their industry but the case with PIA is different because PIA is plagued with politics and corruption at it,s best if an airline like uzbekistan can fly to New York which has a community of around 20,000 uzbeks in the us with great profitability why can,t we serve the 300,000 pakistanis living there. but the upper management is all about nepotism and big talk so no hope until PIA steps up it,s game and abandons the idea of the markhour livery cause PIA is an airline not a UN awareness campaign that we are promoting an animal on the fleet of PIA and also if this money in wisely spent on the refurbishment of the Boeing 777-300ER and the 200ER cabins (including ife) along with some good advertisement if not world class PIA can do fairly better and judging on the current circumstances of the airline the Boeing 787-9 will suit according to the airline,s need as it will fill in the gap between density and capacity fairly well and as with the maintainence i am sure PIA will adapt to it.
Amaad Lone
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Re: Is it time for PIA to say good bye to B777s? Replacement?

Post by Amaad Lone »

Some members seem to reiterate the need to sell the hotels in USA and France or to sell PIA once and for all by creating new threads every month and mentioning it in comments on every thread, but get offended when an article they disagree with is debated.


I do not think its some members I am the only one. Its not because I am getting a commission if the two hotels are sold its because I do not see another way out for PIA.

The airline is in debt of excess of $2 billion. Losses are at 360 billion.

Government has no money to donate anymore and in present situation no one will buy it.

If the hotels are sold and 150 billion rupees plus are injected in one go the core business of PIA will benefit.

Personally I dont give a damn anymore PIA is way off course and just the debt servicing is now costing the airline 15 billion a year.

good luck.
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uzkt01
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Re: Is it time for PIA to say good bye to B777s? Replacement?

Post by uzkt01 »

PIA can swap is B777-200ERs with Airbus A330s. While reconfiguring B777-300ERs and B777-LRs in 10 abreast layout. Most of Pak passengers only care about price so reducing per seat costs is key.