Turboprops operation by Private airlines?

[raihans]

hi,

in recent past we have heard numerous times the acquisition of Dash 8 by AirBlue, not sure if Shaheen had planned ever for turboprops, therefore, specifically pointing the Lahore-Islamabad route which is very profitable for PIA from different sources i have learnt and due to the same, PIA fare is extra ordinary high in comparison to Lahore-Karachi route fare.

my question is why Shaheen Air or Airblue not acquiring turboprops for Southern or Nothern regional airports or do these airlines just wants to operate from main airports of Pakistan?

is CAA not forcing these private carriers to operate the socio-economic or regional routes beside PIA?

[Abbas Ali]

I think there's a clause under which privately-owned airlines can opt to pay penalty for not operating flights on socio-economic routes.

Personally, I think airlines including PIA should not be forced to operate flight on any route particularly loss-making route.

Apparently Shaheen Air and airblue want to operate flights on profit earning routes only.

Some weeks ago, a court of Gilgit-Baltistan tried to force Shaheen Air to operate flights for Gilgit-Baltistan. The legal team representing Shaheen Air informed the court that the airline cannot be forced to operate flight on any route. PIA started flights between Gilgit and Skardu after the court order/suo motu action.

Abbas

[raihans]

^ thank you for info on socio-economic routes. i am sure there will be other routes which could be profitable such as Islamabad - Gilgit/Skardu, Lahore-Islamabad etc

[shamxa]

If PIA successfully privatises, could Pakistan try subsidising routes (for any airline to take up) to make them economically viable before the needed growth happens to make them worth a private airline's time?

I believe that practice is used in the UK, although someone might correct me here

[imiakhtar]

hi,
therefore, specifically pointing the Lahore-Islamabad route which is very profitable for PIA from different sources i have learnt PIA

Facts please, not hearsay. No proof whatsoever that lhe-isb is profitable or as you put it 'very profitable'.

fare is extra ordinary high in comparison to Lahore-Karachi route fare.

High fares in and of themselves aren't proof of anything. As an example, on British Airways International network, JFK-LHR has the lowest average fare, yet the JFK flights are some of the most profitable.

my question is why Shaheen Air or Airblue not acquiring turboprops for Southern or Nothern regional airports or do these airlines just wants to operate from main airports of Pakistan?

From this, you should be able to deduce that it is a myth when Pakistanis say domestic flights are profitable. If they were, then logic would dictate that is where carriers, both private and public, would deploy their capacity. Yet shaheen and airblue have no sub A320/B737 size aircraft and PIA themselves are dragging their feet where such routes are concerned.

In my opinion, I think you would be hard pressed to make any money flying domestically in Pakistan apart from the routes to/from Karachi.

is CAA not forcing these private carriers to operate the socio-economic or regional routes beside PIA?

Why should they?

The airlines are not, as many here think, a taxi service to make their lives easier. It is precisely that kind of thinking that got PIA bleeding money flying to Glasgow, Leeds Bradford, Amsterdam etc

^ thank you for info on socio-economic routes. i am sure there will be other routes which could be profitable such as Islamabad - Gilgit/Skardu, Lahore-Islamabad etc

Yeah right. Airlines will start making money in Pakistan flying to the Northern Areas when pigs start to fly.

I believe that practice is used in the UK, although someone might correct me here

There is provision in some countries, including the UK and US where some local governments are able to fund and subsidise airline routes. Some Flybe routes for example are subsidised by the Scottish government.

However, I don't think you can make a case for such subsidies in Pakistan which benefit a minority when the majority lack basics like access to healthcare and education.

[Moin]

Lol, there you heard it Raihans, either you come up with the hard facts or face the consequences.

[raihans]

Facts please, not hearsay. No proof whatsoever that lhe-isb is profitable or as you put it 'very profitable'.

i have my own internal sources in PIA, indeed the route is very profitable but can't disclose any further

High fares in and of themselves aren't proof of anything. As an example, on British Airways International network, JFK-LHR has the lowest average fare, yet the JFK flights are some of the most profitable.

you took it other way, i meant to say that no other airline serving this route hence the PIA has monopoly and charging high fare in comparison to lahore-karachi mileage/flight duration

From this, you should be able to deduce that it is a myth when Pakistanis say domestic flights are profitable. If they were, then logic would dictate that is where carriers, both private and public, would deploy their capacity. Yet shaheen and airblue have no sub A320/B737 size aircraft and PIA themselves are dragging their feet where such routes are concerned.

In my opinion, I think you would be hard pressed to make any money flying domestically in Pakistan apart from the routes to/from Karachi.

leave socio-economic routes a side, if domestic flights are not profitable than airlines should look for more economic viable aircraft or degrade the equipment from Jet down to Turboprop if service between 2 domestic stations is considered a mandatory connection!

Why should they?

The airlines are not, as many here think, a taxi service to make their lives easier. It is precisely that kind of thinking that got PIA bleeding money flying to Glasgow, Leeds Bradford, Amsterdam etc

then after priviatization of PIA, there will be no difference between PIA, Shaheen Air, Airblue and so the new management of PIA will close all such socio-economic loss making routes then who will serve these stations, don't you feel the rights of people to have air service from their station?

Lol, there you heard it Raihans, either you come up with the hard facts or face the consequences.

i have just placed basic facts which i am known to, moreover, i have not done any blunder that makes me afraid of consequences

[imiakhtar]

Facts please, not hearsay. No proof whatsoever that lhe-isb is profitable or as you put it 'very profitable'.

i have my own internal sources in PIA, indeed the route is very profitable but can't disclose any further

In which case your sources should be able to tell you why such routes are not sustainable, even with the new aviation policy.

if domestic flights are not profitable than airlines should look for more economic viable aircraft or degrade the equipment from Jet down to Turboprop if service between 2 domestic stations is considered a mandatory connection!

Another family of smaller aircraft, whether that be c series, e jets, dash 8 would need to be inducted in relatively large numbers to give scale of economy.

You have sources you claim in PIA, why don't you ask them:

1- The cost of a level D A320/E jet/dash 8/C series sim

2- The cost of a technical data package from the aircraft OEM

3- The cost of a spare PW GTF, CFM, PW 150 engine AND the cost of associated QEC kits.

4 - The maintenance reserves AND the approx EFH costs along with estimated EGT deterioration. Lets assume a 15% average thrust derate with 4 cycles per day and 2 hours for each flight cycle.

5 - The cost of rotables and other basic spares for a fleet of 6 aircraft

And that's just for starters. As you say, you have sources right?

Come back and lecture me on the feasibility of such routes when you have a clearer idea of the above costs.

then after priviatization of PIA, there will be no difference between PIA, Shaheen Air, Airblue and so the new management of PIA will close all such socio-economic loss making routes then who will serve these stations, don't you feel the rights of people to have air service from their station?

That's right. The airlines have no public service obligation.

Newsflash.

Private airlines are run for the benefit of the shareholders, not disadvantaged or isolated communities. If you want to be charitable and provide, as I said a "taxi" service, be my guest.

[raihans]

Facts please, not hearsay. No proof whatsoever that lhe-isb is profitable or as you put it 'very profitable'.

i have my own internal sources in PIA, indeed the route is very profitable but can't disclose any further

In which case your sources should be able to tell you why such routes are not sustainable, even with the new aviation policy.

i guess i am talking about the Lahore-Islamabad route particularly here but not about the non-sustainable routes?

Another family of smaller aircraft, whether that be c series, e jets, dash 8 would need to be inducted in relatively large numbers to give scale of economy.

You have sources you claim in PIA, why don't you ask them:

1- The cost of a level D A320/E jet/dash 8/C series sim

2- The cost of a technical data package from the aircraft OEM

3- The cost of a spare PW GTF, CFM, PW 150 engine AND the cost of associated QEC kits.

4 - The maintenance reserves AND the approx EFH costs along with estimated EGT deterioration. Lets assume a 15% average thrust derate with 4 cycles per day and 2 hours for each flight cycle.

5 - The cost of rotables and other basic spares for a fleet of 6 aircraft

And that's just for starters. As you say, you have sources right?

Come back and lecture me on the feasibility of such routes when you have a clearer idea of the above costs.

simple answer to your technical question is; after grounding of Fokker F27s, PIA did inducted ATRs a new fleet type in inventory, similarly Shaheen Air did replaced their B732s with B734s and later with A320s so induction of new type fleet becomes mandatory when the existing fleet is not fulfilling the gap on operational reasons and at moment, if private airlines are not profitable on domestic sector then they should induct more economical fleet than existing one, that can be ATR or another type turboprop.

That's right. The airlines have no public service obligation.

Newsflash.

Private airlines are run for the benefit of the shareholders, not disadvantaged or isolated communities. If you want to be charitable and provide, as I said a "taxi" service, be my guest.

of course the airline service is seems to be for middle to elite class only, unfortunately

[Pakistan-1]

Maybe a government owned civil air service could fly into those cities or Pakistan Airways

[Shaheer]

then after priviatization of PIA, there will be no difference between PIA, Shaheen Air, Airblue and so the new management of PIA will close all such socio-economic loss making routes then who will serve these stations, don't you feel the rights of people to have air service from their station?

That's right. The airlines have no public service obligation.

Newsflash.

Private airlines are run for the benefit of the shareholders, not disadvantaged or isolated communities. If you want to be charitable and provide, as I said a "taxi" service, be my guest.

I understand, Govt is to remain major share holder of PIA even after privatization; they will still be able to force PIA to keep serving these socio-economic routes

second, CAA currently force all of local operators to serve atleast one SE route or pay royalty to PIA as minimum requirement of RPT (AIRLINE) LICENSE. This will remain the case even after the privatization