PIA Increases Pilots' Salaries

[R.F.]

Finally something congratulations, happy for the PIA pilots as the private airlines are better paymasters now, however may not offer the same overall package and the job security.

The real disparity comes from outstation allowances and basic salary increment which is based upon the aircraft weight category. As per international norms increments are based upon the number of years of service only which is a ball park 3% increment in basic per annum and instead of outstation allowances, perdiems are given.

Should the basic be aligned against years of service, then it wouldn't matter what one flies as the salary wouldn't be effected. Further this ever bickering of whose making more would be reduced drastically as perdiems would substitute hefty outstation allowances which create a significant disparity in earnings, where a junior pilot let's say a first officer flying internationally may make more than a senior pilot or a Captain flying domestic or regional by virtue of outstation allowances.

Anyhow the long and short is, this increment was overdue.

[aviator773]

I just have a very basic question and you can say opinion cum fact too. All the people here saying alot of things that this increment was due for the pilots, PIA pilots are being paid lower than other international and private airlines so for those people I would say that one should not forget the Aircraft Engineers in PIA and the cabin crew are getting not even 50% of what engineers and cabin crew get paid in ME3 or any other international airline so the increments are due for everyone not just the pilots.
Why is it just the pilots ? Why not engineers and cabin crew get such increments ?
No wonder back then Cabin crew used to get involved in smuggling.

[R.F.]

Aviator 773, absolutely who so ever deserve should get their due share. Since the thread is related to pilots therefore it's been directed to them.

However, I disagree with the justification for cabin crew smuggling as breaking the law of the land does not justify a raise, rather it certainly justifies a stiff jail sentence.

[ammad]

However, I disagree with the justification for cabin crew smuggling as breaking the law of the land does not justify a raise, rather it certainly justifies a stiff jail sentence.

Rightly said.

[aviator773]

Aviator 773, absolutely who so ever deserve should get their due share. Since the thread is related to pilots therefore it's been directed to them.

However, I disagree with the justification for cabin crew smuggling as breaking the law of the land does not justify a raise, rather it certainly justifies a stiff jail sentence.

I never said that cabin crew getting involved in smuggling is justified just because they are not even given 25% of what cabin crew get in ME3 or any other airline but what my point was that if you would not give the engineers and cabin crew their due share then they will be forced to get involved in such things. Do shed some light when was cabin crew and engineers given a raise just like this one.
I mean lets be fair cabin crew and engineers work as much hard as the pilots donto ensure the safety of passengers and aircraft then why the discrimination?

[uzairali]

Aviator 773, absolutely who so ever deserve should get their due share. Since the thread is related to pilots therefore it's been directed to them.

However, I disagree with the justification for cabin crew smuggling as breaking the law of the land does not justify a raise, rather it certainly justifies a stiff jail sentence.

I never said that cabin crew getting involved in smuggling is justified just because they are not even given 25% of what cabin crew get in ME3 or any other airline but what my point was that if you would not give the engineers and cabin crew their due share then they will be forced to get involved in such things. Do shed some light when was cabin crew and engineers given a raise just like this one.
I mean lets be fair cabin crew and engineers work as much hard as the pilots donto ensure the safety of passengers and aircraft then why the discrimination?

I disagree. The cabin service is non existent compared to what ME3 offer. Also ME3 employees certain age group, not up to 60-65 year old flight attendants being permissible.

[uzairali]

Aviator 773, absolutely who so ever deserve should get their due share. Since the thread is related to pilots therefore it's been directed to them.

However, I disagree with the justification for cabin crew smuggling as breaking the law of the land does not justify a raise, rather it certainly justifies a stiff jail sentence.

I never said that cabin crew getting involved in smuggling is justified just because they are not even given 25% of what cabin crew get in ME3 or any other airline but what my point was that if you would not give the engineers and cabin crew their due share then they will be forced to get involved in such things. Do shed some light when was cabin crew and engineers given a raise just like this one.
I mean lets be fair cabin crew and engineers work as much hard as the pilots donto ensure the safety of passengers and aircraft then why the discrimination?

I disagree. The cabin service is non existent compared to what ME3 offer. Also ME3 employees certain age group, not up to 60-65 year old flight attendants being permissible.

[aviator773]

Aviator 773, absolutely who so ever deserve should get their due share. Since the thread is related to pilots therefore it's been directed to them.

However, I disagree with the justification for cabin crew smuggling as breaking the law of the land does not justify a raise, rather it certainly justifies a stiff jail sentence.

I never said that cabin crew getting involved in smuggling is justified just because they are not even given 25% of what cabin crew get in ME3 or any other airline but what my point was that if you would not give the engineers and cabin crew their due share then they will be forced to get involved in such things. Do shed some light when was cabin crew and engineers given a raise just like this one.
I mean lets be fair cabin crew and engineers work as much hard as the pilots donto ensure the safety of passengers and aircraft then why the discrimination?

I disagree. The cabin service is non existent compared to what ME3 offer. Also ME3 employees certain age group, not up to 60-65 year old flight attendants being permissible.

Retirement age at PIA is 60 first thing second thing I believe that the elder and experienced lot is the main reason that PIA has been running its operations successfully.
My point is simple that there should be a system of equality everyone deserves a raise and everyone should be given one.

[uzairali]

Aviator 773, absolutely who so ever deserve should get their due share. Since the thread is related to pilots therefore it's been directed to them.

However, I disagree with the justification for cabin crew smuggling as breaking the law of the land does not justify a raise, rather it certainly justifies a stiff jail sentence.

I never said that cabin crew getting involved in smuggling is justified just because they are not even given 25% of what cabin crew get in ME3 or any other airline but what my point was that if you would not give the engineers and cabin crew their due share then they will be forced to get involved in such things. Do shed some light when was cabin crew and engineers given a raise just like this one.
I mean lets be fair cabin crew and engineers work as much hard as the pilots donto ensure the safety of passengers and aircraft then why the discrimination?

I disagree. The cabin service is non existent compared to what ME3 offer. Also ME3 employees certain age group, not up to 60-65 year old flight attendants being permissible.

Retirement age at PIA is 60 first thing second thing I believe that the elder and experienced lot is the main reason that PIA has been running its operations successfully.
My point is simple that there should be a system of equality everyone deserves a raise and everyone should be given one.

Hence I said 60-65 as I wasn't sure of exact age.

Second, I'm not saying the flight attendent has to be some sort of super model, but there needs some physical doing as well. You can't expect a 60 year old police man to act the same way as younger one.

In the event of emergency, a 30-40 year old flight attendant will be much better than 60. What is the 60 year old one going to do, tell people what to do based on experience? No, he/she will have to take charge. Lift heavy bags out of the way, carry children or injured etc.

[Abbas Ali]

I think cabin crew in case of PIA flights is combination of young and experienced people and I don't see anything wrong with a senior cabin crew member (meeting medical fitness requirements) leading junior cabin crew members of the flight.

Younger/junior cabin crew members should be able to handle difficult situation under the guidance of senior & experienced cabin crew member.

Airlines of western world also have senior flight attendants.

Abbas

[aviator773]

Aviator 773, absolutely who so ever deserve should get their due share. Since the thread is related to pilots therefore it's been directed to them.

However, I disagree with the justification for cabin crew smuggling as breaking the law of the land does not justify a raise, rather it certainly justifies a stiff jail sentence.

I never said that cabin crew getting involved in smuggling is justified just because they are not even given 25% of what cabin crew get in ME3 or any other airline but what my point was that if you would not give the engineers and cabin crew their due share then they will be forced to get involved in such things. Do shed some light when was cabin crew and engineers given a raise just like this one.
I mean lets be fair cabin crew and engineers work as much hard as the pilots donto ensure the safety of passengers and aircraft then why the discrimination?

I disagree. The cabin service is non existent compared to what ME3 offer. Also ME3 employees certain age group, not up to 60-65 year old flight attendants being permissible.

Retirement age at PIA is 60 first thing second thing I believe that the elder and experienced lot is the main reason that PIA has been running its operations successfully.
My point is simple that there should be a system of equality everyone deserves a raise and everyone should be given one.

Hence I said 60-65 as I wasn't sure of exact age.

Second, I'm not saying the flight attendent has to be some sort of super model, but there needs some physical doing as well. You can't expect a 60 year old police man to act the same way as younger one.

In the event of emergency, a 30-40 year old flight attendant will be much better than 60. What is the 60 year old one going to do, tell people what to do based on experience? No, he/she will have to take charge. Lift heavy bags out of the way, carry children or injured etc.

Well trust me on this but a 50+ year old guy's experience would be the first thing you would need to tackle an emergency situation. As Abbas said that if the crew is upto the fitness level then there is no harm in it. Putting a 30-40 year old guy in charge of the whole cabin crew staff would be the last thing you would want especially in an emergency situation. I'll give you a common example, mostly when I see Shaheen's aircrafts landing I have observed the cabin lights on which is a very risky thing if the aircraft encounters some emergency situation after landing and this is clear sign of lack of experience that most of the shaheen cabin crew has since they all are very young. So my friend experience matters alot, you just have to ensure the fitness of crew.
Last puraney log desi cheezein khatey they tou woh aj k jawano sey ziadaa tandrust aur takatwaar hai.

[<ATR>{320}[777]]

Abbas you should have closed this topic as soon as it was started, showing your biasedness towards pilots. Making salaries public is not a decent norm in any society. Why did you not started the same thread when Engineers, Cabin Crew and other staffers salaries were raised by 17% last year, that is in 2015 as a reward by then management for not supporting PALPA in go slow twice, we all remember unions/association except PALPA was sitting with the then Chairman and showing their jubiliation by defeating PALPAs go slow and the very next week everyones salary got raised by 17% except pilots. Why did you not started the same thread in year 2013 when everyone except Pilots salaries was raised. Pilots did not get any raise for the last 5 years and it was due long time back, with already only 418 pilots available to fly 38 aircrafts (that comes to 5.5 sets per aircraft with leave and sick reports not catered yet in that figure) and many in the pipeline to leave for greener pastures and applied for long leave who will fly those aircrafts with plans of inducting more aircrafts, plus on average 15 retirements per year. Already daily tens of flights are being cancelled for shortage of pilots please check the facts and then come back. Cadet pilots sitting at home are only 20 left to be precise. If advertisement is given for new pilots tomorrow it takes atleast 1 year for selection process and 2 years to get them to flying. Ill suggest all to be rational and talk with facts when posting especially on public forum. Everyone has a different set of job with different perks worldwide. Compare an apple with an apple and not with an orange!

[uzairali]

Aviator 773, absolutely who so ever deserve should get their due share. Since the thread is related to pilots therefore it's been directed to them.

However, I disagree with the justification for cabin crew smuggling as breaking the law of the land does not justify a raise, rather it certainly justifies a stiff jail sentence.

I never said that cabin crew getting involved in smuggling is justified just because they are not even given 25% of what cabin crew get in ME3 or any other airline but what my point was that if you would not give the engineers and cabin crew their due share then they will be forced to get involved in such things. Do shed some light when was cabin crew and engineers given a raise just like this one.
I mean lets be fair cabin crew and engineers work as much hard as the pilots donto ensure the safety of passengers and aircraft then why the discrimination?

I disagree. The cabin service is non existent compared to what ME3 offer. Also ME3 employees certain age group, not up to 60-65 year old flight attendants being permissible.

Retirement age at PIA is 60 first thing second thing I believe that the elder and experienced lot is the main reason that PIA has been running its operations successfully.
My point is simple that there should be a system of equality everyone deserves a raise and everyone should be given one.

Hence I said 60-65 as I wasn't sure of exact age.

Second, I'm not saying the flight attendent has to be some sort of super model, but there needs some physical doing as well. You can't expect a 60 year old police man to act the same way as younger one.

In the event of emergency, a 30-40 year old flight attendant will be much better than 60. What is the 60 year old one going to do, tell people what to do based on experience? No, he/she will have to take charge. Lift heavy bags out of the way, carry children or injured etc.

Well trust me on this but a 50+ year old guy's experience would be the first thing you would need to tackle an emergency situation. As Abbas said that if the crew is upto the fitness level then there is no harm in it. Putting a 30-40 year old guy in charge of the whole cabin crew staff would be the last thing you would want especially in an emergency situation. I'll give you a common example, mostly when I see Shaheen's aircrafts landing I have observed the cabin lights on which is a very risky thing if the aircraft encounters some emergency situation after landing and this is clear sign of lack of experience that most of the shaheen cabin crew has since they all are very young. So my friend experience matters alot, you just have to ensure the fitness of crew.
Last puraney log desi cheezein khatey they tou woh aj k jawano sey ziadaa tandrust aur takatwaar hai.

Experience can not be related to poor training.

Turning off cabin lights does not need 20-40 years of experience. It requires proper training. Those who cannot follow proper training need to be fired, simple as that.

Living in west, I've flew many foreign airlines. Abbas is correct to say in West there are 40+ cabin crew, but that is starting to change and I have witnessed it only on gov't run airlines.

I flew ryan air, veuling, and even at alitalia (govt owned now run by etihad), the crew were basically in mid 20s to mid 30s. And despite ryan/veuling being budget airline, their service is much better than what experienced at PIA/Shaheen. The reason Ryan had such good crew is because they hire through agencies. Bad crew? Find someone else easy. Whereas PIA is plagued with union.

You want to keep experience? Yeah one is enough, who is crew leader on that airplane. Everyone else should not be over 40.

[TAILWIND]

why cant we continue discussion without quoting entire tread. If needed, only relevant text should be quoted. A little common sense.

[A310]

The least increase for an atr FO is higher than the total salary of an average grade PIA employee.

Truly 'PALPA international airline'.

With that 'least' increase do you know International Slip Allowance, Excess Duty Allowance, Denied rest allowance, Club class travel for pilots, all these things are coming to an end for pilots. Still mind this increase? Do your math and you'll know that on the whole it's a loss for the junior lot.

I don't mind the pay raise they can rip off as much as they can. Further I didn't know ATR is operating many international flights so I feel bad for you guys being deprived of the allowances.
Loss for the junior Lot? Try figuring out how much the juniors will be offered by other airlines in Pak.

Been busy so couldn't reply. Now that is exactly what I expect to hear from non PIA people, don't know s about how these allowances matter but are always there for nonsense.
1, Junior lot doesn't mean ATR only. Even some of the B777 F/Os are considered as the junior lot because many of them have as low as 6 years experience with the airline and as far as they are concerned you know exactly how these $$$ matter.
2, Yes It's true there are no International allowances/flights for ATR pilots but excess and denied was there. You want to know the details, you're welcome to ask.
3, I don't know about private airlines salary structure but why In hell would you compare PIA pilots salary to other Pakistani airlines salary structure. Does the younger lot leave to join Shaheen, Air Blue? They leave for Etihad, Qatar, Emirates etc because you know why.

But yes fixed salary is the way to go forward.