Pakistan - UAE Air Service Agreement Revised

[CoyBoy]

No Japanese airline flies to UAE or Middle East, in the past JAL had served six routes in the region including Abu Dhabi, are they interested in flying there again? I dont think so, doubt anything is keeping them from it, when no ME3 were serving Japan no Japanese airline tried to fly there, those airports want to attract as many foreign airlines too.

The bilateral lists Baloch airports for open skies, what does it mean? PIA will be the only one benefitting right now if they fly from there.

[H Khan]

Well, PIA will end up like the metro service in Pakistan, that's given.

Rest I hope that anti-trust courts cuts off one these G3 limbs...

[boeing787]

The big three U.S Airlines (AA, Delta, and United) have recently pushed a review against the G3 that these G3 airlines have received $40 billion from their govt as subsidiaries. If the review is approved they will most likely enforce Sherman Act. According to news big carriers like Lufthansa, Qantas, Cathy Pacific, and Virgin Atlantic might also join this review.

Recently, Qatar signed a deal with France for almost 7 billion euros to buy 24 Rafale fighter aircrafts. On the side, after the deal was signed it was disclosed that France has given permit for Qatar Airways to fly to two more destination within France. The new destination Nice-Côte d’Azur and Lyon-Saint Exupéry. This deal has already raised a lot of eye over the kickbacks.

My view is that these G3 have become way too big in a very short time. Recently JAL and ANA complained about the frequency of the flights into Japan from G3 while they have have to face a lot of restrictions.

But France got 24 billion in return and G3 don't really steal air France customers considering air France has competent management and big enough. Yes there is effect but not very big. Most like it will be south Asian on those Emirates flights. But what does Pakistan really get from me3? Not such huge contracts. Yes they employ Pakistani workers under strict contract and Pakistanis also invest billions of dollars in uae.

Open sky policy is good when govt looks after its people. The G3 are there to make profit. They won't improve airport overall for everyone else, they'll do only what benefits them. A company looks after itself, not others.

[baberblues]

Business has no boundaries, the ME3 are not here to provide Pakistan infrastucture or other services to the public within Pakistan, they're main aim to compete and serve pakistani passengers and generate traffic for themselves which they have done so rightly. Its PIA's own fault for its muck up and should now bear its consequences. Im all for open skies and competition and more expansion of Emirates in PAK, the better in my opinion.

[boeing787]

Business has no boundaries, the ME3 are not here to provide Pakistan infrastucture or other services to the public within Pakistan, they're main aim to compete and serve pakistani passengers and generate traffic for themselves which they have done so rightly. Its PIA's own fault for its muck up and should now bear its consequences. Im all for open skies and competition and more expansion of Emirates in PAK, the better in my opinion.

And how do you expect shaheen, air blue to survive? Or can any new airline survive outside of Pakistan?

The reason shaheen and air blue can't do Europe is because of me3. They simply can't compete. Air blue used to fly Europe but not anymore. They can't make money when they're competing with a380 and b777-300er

[Hamad]

Business has no boundaries, the ME3 are not here to provide Pakistan infrastucture or other services to the public within Pakistan, they're main aim to compete and serve pakistani passengers and generate traffic for themselves which they have done so rightly. Its PIA's own fault for its muck up and should now bear its consequences. Im all for open skies and competition and more expansion of Emirates in PAK, the better in my opinion.

And how do you expect shaheen, air blue to survive? Or can any new airline survive outside of Pakistan?

The reason shaheen and air blue can't do Europe is because of me3. They simply can't compete. Air blue used to fly Europe but not anymore. They can't make money when they're competing with a380 and b777-300er

I partly agree - as they have larger Aircraft and lower operational costs they have definitely lower costs per Seat and therefore can offer cheaper fares.
BUT in my opinion other Airlines should try to compete at their best which means they should offer a decent cabin, IFE and most important a good Service.
Lets say Airblue or PIA would offer the same level of Comfort, IFE, Service, etc. as the ME3 but offer direct flights - that would give PA or PK an advantage and In my view a lot of people would prefer them. Beside that PK is not operating FRA anymore one of the main reasons why I prefer the ME3 Airlines are because there Seats are comfortable, IFE fantastic, Meal delicious and a good Service. Thats my personal point of view.

[CoyBoy]

Is there really a need for more than two airlines in Pakistan? if the rest shut down no problem, they may have created jobs, but they didnt even exist once upon a time, so where were those people who are working for them now, doubt they hired the unemployed and inexperienced.

[boeing787]

Business has no boundaries, the ME3 are not here to provide Pakistan infrastucture or other services to the public within Pakistan, they're main aim to compete and serve pakistani passengers and generate traffic for themselves which they have done so rightly. Its PIA's own fault for its muck up and should now bear its consequences. Im all for open skies and competition and more expansion of Emirates in PAK, the better in my opinion.

And how do you expect shaheen, air blue to survive? Or can any new airline survive outside of Pakistan?

The reason shaheen and air blue can't do Europe is because of me3. They simply can't compete. Air blue used to fly Europe but not anymore. They can't make money when they're competing with a380 and b777-300er

I partly agree - as they have larger Aircraft and lower operational costs they have definitely lower costs per Seat and therefore can offer cheaper fares.
BUT in my opinion other Airlines should try to compete at their best which means they should offer a decent cabin, IFE and most important a good Service.
Lets say Airblue or PIA would offer the same level of Comfort, IFE, Service, etc. as the ME3 but offer direct flights - that would give PA or PK an advantage and In my view a lot of people would prefer them. Beside that PK is not operating FRA anymore one of the main reasons why I prefer the ME3 Airlines are because there Seats are comfortable, IFE fantastic, Meal delicious and a good Service. Thats my personal point of view.

Indeed. And don't get me wrong, let's say that tomorrow gov't limits G3 flights and imagine PIA has equal amount of planes and service etc as G3. But 5 years from now, it'll deteriorate if that PIA is left at the hands of present management.

But the bigger problem is, we will never have an airline industry grow, because in domestic they face PIA, Shaheen and Air blue and international is simply impossible. We are not India that the national carrier will have 1b of potential population or 5th or whatever largest country in world and it is there the likes of indigo or numerous airlines can operate with over 100 a320 and 90% they're domestic.

What gov't needs to do is half half. Improve PIA management, and when that is improved, offer tiny bit of protectionism to help grow PIA.

As a flyer, I myself flew Saudi instead of PIA (though I needed layover in jeddah). I will go with what is cheap. But as an economist of gov't, I will also think that by making national airline strong may help tickets be $50 more expensive for Pakistanis and other people due to protectionism, but it will create thousands of jobs (national jobs) and millions, if not billions one day, in profits/economy.

edit: sorry for below post duno why it posted twice. And I forgot to add, if we protect national carriers, they'll start competing. Do we not think that if G3 did not exist, perhaps Shaheen or Air blue could be stronger today? Yes PIA management is bad, but bad management leads to new airline company. King fisher had bad management, the airline died. But that market was taken over by new competent airline.

[boeing787]

Business has no boundaries, the ME3 are not here to provide Pakistan infrastucture or other services to the public within Pakistan, they're main aim to compete and serve pakistani passengers and generate traffic for themselves which they have done so rightly. Its PIA's own fault for its muck up and should now bear its consequences. Im all for open skies and competition and more expansion of Emirates in PAK, the better in my opinion.

And how do you expect shaheen, air blue to survive? Or can any new airline survive outside of Pakistan?

The reason shaheen and air blue can't do Europe is because of me3. They simply can't compete. Air blue used to fly Europe but not anymore. They can't make money when they're competing with a380 and b777-300er

I partly agree - as they have larger Aircraft and lower operational costs they have definitely lower costs per Seat and therefore can offer cheaper fares.
BUT in my opinion other Airlines should try to compete at their best which means they should offer a decent cabin, IFE and most important a good Service.
Lets say Airblue or PIA would offer the same level of Comfort, IFE, Service, etc. as the ME3 but offer direct flights - that would give PA or PK an advantage and In my view a lot of people would prefer them. Beside that PK is not operating FRA anymore one of the main reasons why I prefer the ME3 Airlines are because there Seats are comfortable, IFE fantastic, Meal delicious and a good Service. Thats my personal point of view.

Indeed. And don't get me wrong, let's say that tomorrow gov't limits G3 flights and imagine PIA has equal amount of planes and service etc as G3. But 5 years from now, it'll deteriorate if that PIA is left at the hands of present management.

But the bigger problem is, we will never have an airline industry grow, because in domestic they face PIA, Shaheen and Air blue and international is simply impossible. We are not India that the national carrier will have 1b of potential population or 5th or whatever largest country in world and it is there the likes of indigo or numerous airlines can operate with over 100 a320 and 90% they're domestic.

What gov't needs to do is half half. Improve PIA management, and when that is improved, offer tiny bit of protectionism to help grow PIA.

As a flyer, I myself flew Saudi instead of PIA (though I needed layover in jeddah). I will go with what is cheap. But as an economist of gov't, I will also think that by making national airline strong may help tickets be $50 more expensive for Pakistanis and other people due to protectionism, but it will create thousands of jobs (national jobs) and millions, if not billions one day, in profits/economy.

[TAILWIND]

And how do you expect shaheen, air blue to survive? Or can any new airline survive outside of Pakistan?

The reason shaheen and air blue can't do Europe is because of me3. They simply can't compete. Air blue used to fly Europe but not anymore. They can't make money when they're competing with a380 and b777-300er

If you can't compete, don't compete. if ME carriers have a better business sense, netter management, better product and are able to capture market, so be it.
Protectionism will only give you Suzuki Mehran, a piece of tin in continuous production since 1989,the longest production run for a passenger car model after VW Beetle and Lada. I am sure people at Suzuki Mehran must have forgotten there was a model like that.

[boeing787]

And how do you expect shaheen, air blue to survive? Or can any new airline survive outside of Pakistan?

The reason shaheen and air blue can't do Europe is because of me3. They simply can't compete. Air blue used to fly Europe but not anymore. They can't make money when they're competing with a380 and b777-300er

If you can't compete, don't compete. if ME carriers have a better business sense, netter management, better product and are able to capture market, so be it.
Protectionism will only give you Suzuki Mehran, a piece of tin in continuous production since 1989,the longest production run for a passenger car model after VW Beetle and Lada. I am sure people at Suzuki Mehran must have forgotten there was a model like that.

You're right to an extent, but that law should apply if domestic companies are competing. If US or Canada was left open for ME, or Europe, the airlines would see a huge drop in revenues! Through a pilot lens, you're correct. Through an economist lens, gov't intervention is needed, both to ensure domestic companies survive (hence Canada is very conservative allowing foreign companies. One way to tell is we pay 10 times what Pakistan pays for mobile, but Canada gov't does this because they know foreign companies will look for benefits and deploy networks where they make money, i.e. 10 cities. Meanwhile the big 3 carriers deploy network where people don't even live, i.e. along highways.)

I am not saying outright protectionism, and I've also said that PIA if given in perfect shape to present management, it will collapse the way it is now. What I am saying is, protect and enhance. Help improve PIA, shaheen or airblue be in better shape and only if (and again) only if competition is not allowing these domestic carriers to grow (due to them flying b777-300er/777-9x/a330neo/787 which are cheaper to operate) then start "protectionism" albeit not going mehran way, but more generously, as in 11 emirates flight, 5 PIA flights vs 13 emirates and 3 PIA and NOT 8 PIA and 8 Emirates.


Again, if you allow these middle east airlines to crawl in Europe or NA, they will simply take away their numerous international routes. It is super hard to compete with ME3. Let's not forget that when these ME3 buy planes, they get super discounts thanks to the amount they buy. What kind of discount will PIA get on 5 777, Air Canada 25 777 vs 300 777 emirates buy? Boeing even goes to these airlines and ask them what stuff they want. So when emirates sit on table with boeing or airbus, they know that if they reach a good deal, they will have 150 planes to sell plus future as well (if emirates buy 777-9x 100, they will buy another 100 of these in 10 years after as they replace older fleet). If not, airbus will get 150+ planes, which is like $20b+. If emirates and other ME airlines didn't buy a380, it may have been a failure. If Engine alliance knows that some 120 a380 out of 160 will use their engine from ME, how can they not be forced to give good discount? Or half the a380 being and will be flown by ME carriers? Now think about IFE, lets say emirates need to buy 100,000 of those and PIA buys 10,000 (example), who will get better discount? List goes on.

Just take a look at emirates fleet. About 160 777 and now they ordered nearly 200 more. This is just emirates. Look at other ME airlines. This is why somewhat protectionism is good. Don't let Air Canada just collapse by having free skies policy, but let air canada deliver better product whilst letting ME serve Canada just enough.

[baberblues]

Tailwind I agree with you, If you arent able to compete then dont compete. . Looking at younger generations to come majority of them wont even fly PIA because they know the ME3 are value for money. Only the PAK goverment is to blame in the matter, look at the state they have left PIA in.

[CoyBoy]

Does anyone think Etihad might take 26% of PK in October?