Embraer 195

[Rana]

These type of plane have need Airlines In Pakistan . Low of cost , Reliably. Efficiently. Smoothly.
Price ~35000000 USD . as compare airbus319 and B737-NG ~3 time less.

[Abdullah]

They have great ESolutions. It will be a better option for PIA to move for the fleet like Bombardiers or for Embraers. Airlines around the world operating such fleet.

[CaptShahid621]

For the sake of choosing one over the other....

Id personally go with the EMB 190....why? Simple...now this is compared to the CRJ-900

1. Costs a few million less
2. Larger seating capacity
3. Lower fuel cost per nautical mile
4. Lowest fuel cost per seat
5. Much longer range (by 1400 NM)
6. Similar max cruise altitude (FL410)
7. Higher thrust output (although this may come out to bring higher fuel costs)
8. Taller cabin height
9. Wider cabin
10. More baggage volume

Ive been on the EMB 170s/190s and CRJ 200/700/900.....I can safely say, the EMB 170/190 are much more passenger friendly in the realm of comfort. Airlines like Jetblue who have opted for a IFE with PTVs....often help make a 2-3 hour flight on these birds very tolerable. Frankly the seats on the CRJ are very narrow and uncomfy.

Thats just my take on it and ofcourse a EMB in a PIA livery will look absolutely beautiful.....

The only thing though, is that, based on my conversations with different pilots in the USA who fly for regionals like, Republic, Skywest, Mesa, etc.....are not happy with their contracts flying this particular aircraft because, some of the routes done by this plane were at one point used by heavier jets like a A320 (i.e. United from CLE --> DEN), as a result given that much of the regional industry in the USA operates on a fixed contract wage, your first year FO will make very similar rates flying Props. Again, I am sure the situation in Pakistan is very different, as I am not aware of the pay structure/seniority ranking system. But this is what Ive read, that operationally many airlines love the plane, but from a pilot's perspective, many have cited strong reservation holding wage factors a critical component in the argument against it.

[rayyanullah]

But this is what Ive read, that operationally many airlines love the plane, but from a pilot's perspective, many have cited strong reservation holding wage factors a critical component in the argument against it.

Where airlines are run by professional management would serious attention be given to low pilot wages as an against argument when evaluating an equipment.

[imiakhtar]

Low of cost ,

Low cost to buy yes.

Not low cost to operate.

Reliably.

The E190 family has a technical dispatch reliability averaging around 98.5%.

In comparison, the A320 and 737 families average at 99.4% and above.

Anything below 99% dispatch reliability would be considered by most airline managers to be poor.

Price ~35000000 USD

Pay $5m more and get yourself an A320 or 737. More flexibility for a small airline like PIA, smaller 3 aircraft type training pool (Atr, 737/A320 and 777 vs ATR, E190, 737/A320 and 777).

Also, the E190 engine CF-34 is relatively expensive to maintain. Jetblue, Air Canada, Lufthansa and Flybe are just some of the airlines that have voiced concerns about the high maintenance costs of the CF34.

A big part of the cost story has been the work JetBlue needed to undertake on about 30 of those GE-made CF34-10 engines—a new model back in 2005, when JetBlue became the first operator of the Embraer model. Last year, with the engines getting on in years, JetBlue began noticing performance problems that involved “peripheral parts” of the engine, JetBlue Chief Financial Officer Mark Powers says. About 20 engines have been overhauled so far, and the rest will be repaired this year.

“This airplane and this engine are really, really important to our Boston operation, and our Boston operation has a huge business audience. So reliability is critical,” Powers says. “We were not delivering that performance, and it became clear that we just had to get ahead of it.” Airline executives concluded that the GE motors’ performance needed to be addressed quickly, despite the cost. “Budgets be damned,” the CFO says of the decision, which led to the accelerated engine work now rippling across JetBlue’s balance sheet.

JetBlue's Aging Engines Become a Big Cost Problem

According to Market Intelligence, Air Canada has been unhappy with the maintenance costs of the E-190, principally focused on the GE CF34 engines. JetBlue, another E-190 operator, has cited engine maintenance costs in its SEC federal filings as an area of concern. Air Canada uses the E-Jets on some routes that push the range–Toronto-Seattle, for example–and on rare occasions, a tech stop in Montana on this route is required, Air Canada gate agents told us.

Disposing of the E-Jets presented a problem, however: Current Market Values for the planes are said to be substantially below book value, presenting Air Canada with a potentially large one-time write off if the right deal wasn’t structured. But the prospect of Airbus or Boeing taking the airplanes in on trade presented a problem for the buyer, too. Appraisers and lessors we consulted told us that the market for used E-Jets is soft, with lease rates or resale values reflecting this, making it difficult for the buyer to make a financially sound deal.

Assessing the Air Canada 737 order: factors that likely played a role

[mac777]

thanks for sharing with us another view of its characteristics. embraer jets are still 'rare birds' in this part of the world with nas air and oman air operating them.
although ATR are widely used worldwide,it is only used on limited scale in Pakistan. hopefully the upcoming pia atr72 will provide an efficient means to 'unlock' some further market share.
however any upcoming airline can consider the embraer and it may prove useful at the start of operations.

[CaptShahid621]

But this is what Ive read, that operationally many airlines love the plane, but from a pilot's perspective, many have cited strong reservation holding wage factors a critical component in the argument against it.

Where airlines are run by professional management would serious attention be given to low pilot wages as an against argument when evaluating an equipment.

That is what I am saying too.....you'll never find management concerned with wages for a pilot to offset a particular equip. Thats just industry standard...be it USA or Pakistan....

[CaptShahid621]

Low of cost ,

Low cost to buy yes.

Not low cost to operate.

Reliably.

The E190 family has a technical dispatch reliability averaging around 98.5%.

In comparison, the A320 and 737 families average at 99.4% and above.

Anything below 99% dispatch reliability would be considered by most airline managers to be poor.

Price ~35000000 USD

Pay $5m more and get yourself an A320 or 737. More flexibility for a small airline like PIA, smaller 3 aircraft type training pool (Atr, 737/A320 and 777 vs ATR, E190, 737/A320 and 777).

Also, the E190 engine CF-34 is relatively expensive to maintain. Jetblue, Air Canada, Lufthansa and Flybe are just some of the airlines that have voiced concerns about the high maintenance costs of the CF34.

A big part of the cost story has been the work JetBlue needed to undertake on about 30 of those GE-made CF34-10 engines—a new model back in 2005, when JetBlue became the first operator of the Embraer model. Last year, with the engines getting on in years, JetBlue began noticing performance problems that involved “peripheral parts” of the engine, JetBlue Chief Financial Officer Mark Powers says. About 20 engines have been overhauled so far, and the rest will be repaired this year.

“This airplane and this engine are really, really important to our Boston operation, and our Boston operation has a huge business audience. So reliability is critical,” Powers says. “We were not delivering that performance, and it became clear that we just had to get ahead of it.” Airline executives concluded that the GE motors’ performance needed to be addressed quickly, despite the cost. “Budgets be damned,” the CFO says of the decision, which led to the accelerated engine work now rippling across JetBlue’s balance sheet.

JetBlue's Aging Engines Become a Big Cost Problem

According to Market Intelligence, Air Canada has been unhappy with the maintenance costs of the E-190, principally focused on the GE CF34 engines. JetBlue, another E-190 operator, has cited engine maintenance costs in its SEC federal filings as an area of concern. Air Canada uses the E-Jets on some routes that push the range–Toronto-Seattle, for example–and on rare occasions, a tech stop in Montana on this route is required, Air Canada gate agents told us.

Disposing of the E-Jets presented a problem, however: Current Market Values for the planes are said to be substantially below book value, presenting Air Canada with a potentially large one-time write off if the right deal wasn’t structured. But the prospect of Airbus or Boeing taking the airplanes in on trade presented a problem for the buyer, too. Appraisers and lessors we consulted told us that the market for used E-Jets is soft, with lease rates or resale values reflecting this, making it difficult for the buyer to make a financially sound deal.

Assessing the Air Canada 737 order: factors that likely played a role

$5 million more for a 737???

A brand new 737-900ER costs around $84 mil
A brand new A320 is around $93 million

Emb 190 brand new costs $32 mil.

Idk...a 737-600 only has 20 more seats for the same mission a EMB 190 can do with smaller fuel costs. Yes the range is more on a 737 by a few hundred miles. But for a cash strapped airline, going with a smaller jet might pay dividends.

[imiakhtar]

$5 million more for a 737???

A brand new 737-900ER costs around $84 mil
A brand new A320 is around $93 million

No one, apart from Corporate operators who require relatively complex and expensive cabin furnishings, pays full price.

For single aisle narrowbody aircraft like the A320 and B737, upto 60% discount off list price is standard. For widebody aircraft, standard discount is around 50% off list price.

The more aircraft you buy, the bigger the discount.

[CaptShahid621]

$5 million more for a 737???

A brand new 737-900ER costs around $84 mil
A brand new A320 is around $93 million

No one, apart from Corporate operators who require relatively complex and expensive cabin furnishings, pays full price.

For single aisle narrowbody aircraft like the A320 and B737, upto 60% discount off list price is standard. For widebody aircraft, standard discount is around 50% off list price.

The more aircraft you buy, the bigger the discount.

Alright. I usually dont get into a tennis match online, but this is just for the purposes of giving you an example because lets face it, neither you or I could buy an aircraft for this much. Heck I wish we could! So I am just trying to relay correct information.

1. Alaska Airlines purchased 10 737-900ER, for a total cost of $990 Mil. ($99 million a piece)

source: http://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/ ... 737-900ers

2. Skywest Airlines (DBA United) purchased 7 EMB 175's for $301 Mil ($43 Mil a piece)

source: http://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/ ... rlines-cpa

3. RyanAir finalizes order for 100 Boeing 737 Max 200 for 11 Billion ($110 mil a piece)

source: http://ksn.com/2014/12/01/boeing-finali ... h-ryanair/

All deals were done reflective of 2014.

Im sure there is a discount clause in there....but just saying, this is in material news print.

Cheers.

[Rana]

Here is approximate price of new B737-NG
http://www.aircraftcompare.com/manufact ... /Boeing/01
Price ~35000000 USD is the price of a new E-195 )))

Want to say one thing , it is funny to compare ATR turbo prop with E190. If any airline will deiced to get Wet lease (ACMI), 56% load can cover 100% leasing cost and every body know about the domestic and INTR load from Pakistan. This plane can help to PIA and AirBlue not only for their domestic operation even international also. Some body wrote about NAS air here. Due to poor management they could not operate Embraer . two of previous NAS AIR Embraer are operating by SARATOVAIRLINES . Operation is successful and profitable .

[imiakhtar]

Alright. I usually dont get into a tennis match online, but this is just for the purposes of giving you an example because lets face it, neither you or I could buy an aircraft for this much. Heck I wish we could! So I am just trying to relay correct information.

Here is approximate price of new B737-NG
http://www.aircraftcompare.com/manufact ... /Boeing/01

You two should avoid playing tennis.

You are quoting catalog or list prices.

Like I said, no one pays catalog/list prices.

As an example see here:

Airbus announced 496 total orders and commitments, worth $75 billion at list prices, or about $33 billion after standard discounts, using Avitas estimates.

Boeing announced 201 total orders and commitments, worth $40 billion at list prices, or about $20 billion after standard discounts, using Avitas estimates. Again, that includes the 22 narrowbody 737 orders that were on the books before the Air Show.

Airbus logs more Air Show deals; Boeing still leads in orders

Another example

Southwest Chief Operating Officer Mike Van de Ven, who negotiated the deal with Boeing, said the new order adds to 142 firm orders for 737s already on Southwest's books, for a total 350. The airline will pay $13.2 billion for the lot over an 11-year period through 2022, he said.

Even allowing for relatively small prepayments already made on the previous 142 orders, that still works out at less than $40 million per airplane.

The current 737-800 has a list price of $84 million.

Southwest's order gives huge boost to Boeing's 737 MAX program

[CaptShahid621]

Alright. I usually dont get into a tennis match online, but this is just for the purposes of giving you an example because lets face it, neither you or I could buy an aircraft for this much. Heck I wish we could! So I am just trying to relay correct information.

Here is approximate price of new B737-NG
http://www.aircraftcompare.com/manufact ... /Boeing/01

You two should avoid playing tennis.

You are quoting catalog or list prices.

Like I said, no one pays catalog/list prices.

As an example see here:

Airbus announced 496 total orders and commitments, worth $75 billion at list prices, or about $33 billion after standard discounts, using Avitas estimates.

Boeing announced 201 total orders and commitments, worth $40 billion at list prices, or about $20 billion after standard discounts, using Avitas estimates. Again, that includes the 22 narrowbody 737 orders that were on the books before the Air Show.

Airbus logs more Air Show deals; Boeing still leads in orders

Another example

Southwest Chief Operating Officer Mike Van de Ven, who negotiated the deal with Boeing, said the new order adds to 142 firm orders for 737s already on Southwest's books, for a total 350. The airline will pay $13.2 billion for the lot over an 11-year period through 2022, he said.

Even allowing for relatively small prepayments already made on the previous 142 orders, that still works out at less than $40 million per airplane.

The current 737-800 has a list price of $84 million.

Southwest's order gives huge boost to Boeing's 737 MAX program

Alright you still dont get it, but thats ok.

Btw I was playing tennis with you not the other person, as I fully agree with his rationale.

In any case, I never said, discounts dont exist. Please go back up and read (("Im sure there is a discount clause in there"), secondly, when/if discounts are applied they are NOT just for any specific planes (i.e. a 737 or 320), hence it still OFFSETS the price to a lower premium be it a 747 or EMB 175 so eitherway its a equal playing field. So the $ 5 mil addition is a bit off since the "discounts" would also apply for EMB jets too. (i.e. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-1 ... -sale.html Sale for EMB Jets to TSA Airlines)

Btw the article for the Southwest deal is a few years old, the prices have changed a bit.

I know AVITAS very well, in fact its about 2 Km away from my house, their HQ that is, and friends working for them, state its simply a value based system they use to signify their marketing to value contracts by labeling it a "discount" after valuation. So again, this goes for ALL planes and companies that use their consulting services.


Anyhow, I rest my case, we can agree to disagree, I am def. ok with that.

Anyhow now that is settled, back to the topic at hand.

[Rana]

Alright. I usually dont get into a tennis match online, but this is just for the purposes of giving you an example because lets face it, neither you or I could buy an aircraft for this much. Heck I wish we could! So I am just trying to relay correct information.

Here is approximate price of new B737-NG
http://www.aircraftcompare.com/manufact ... /Boeing/01

You two should avoid playing tennis.

You are quoting catalog or list prices.

Like I said, no one pays catalog/list prices.

As an example see here:

Airbus announced 496 total orders and commitments, worth $75 billion at list prices, or about $33 billion after standard discounts, using Avitas estimates.

Boeing announced 201 total orders and commitments, worth $40 billion at list prices, or about $20 billion after standard discounts, using Avitas estimates. Again, that includes the 22 narrowbody 737 orders that were on the books before the Air Show.

Airbus logs more Air Show deals; Boeing still leads in orders

Another example

Southwest Chief Operating Officer Mike Van de Ven, who negotiated the deal with Boeing, said the new order adds to 142 firm orders for 737s already on Southwest's books, for a total 350. The airline will pay $13.2 billion for the lot over an 11-year period through 2022, he said.

Even allowing for relatively small prepayments already made on the previous 142 orders, that still works out at less than $40 million per airplane.

The current 737-800 has a list price of $84 million.

Southwest's order gives huge boost to Boeing's 737 MAX program

DEAR I KNOW WANT YOU WANT TO SAY . BUT YOU ARE TRYING TO PLAY TENNIS WITH BADMINTON RACKET))
I wan to discus about aviation in Pakistan here..Just take any PAKISTANI airline ..the problem is same THEY DONT HAVE PLANE FOR OPERATION . And foreigner companies are getting business it is so Sade. Every Airline in Pakistan is over crowded , more expenses less profit . POLITICS , REFERENCE, INCOMPETENCY are the major problems . WHEN GAME WILL BE OVER I MEAN BUSINESS WILL IN THE HANDS OF FOREIGNER AIRLINES , THEN ALL THESE PEOPLES WILL DANCE ((

[CaptShahid621]

Alright. I usually dont get into a tennis match online, but this is just for the purposes of giving you an example because lets face it, neither you or I could buy an aircraft for this much. Heck I wish we could! So I am just trying to relay correct information.

Here is approximate price of new B737-NG
http://www.aircraftcompare.com/manufact ... /Boeing/01

You two should avoid playing tennis.

You are quoting catalog or list prices.

Like I said, no one pays catalog/list prices.

As an example see here:

Airbus announced 496 total orders and commitments, worth $75 billion at list prices, or about $33 billion after standard discounts, using Avitas estimates.

Boeing announced 201 total orders and commitments, worth $40 billion at list prices, or about $20 billion after standard discounts, using Avitas estimates. Again, that includes the 22 narrowbody 737 orders that were on the books before the Air Show.

Airbus logs more Air Show deals; Boeing still leads in orders

Another example

Southwest Chief Operating Officer Mike Van de Ven, who negotiated the deal with Boeing, said the new order adds to 142 firm orders for 737s already on Southwest's books, for a total 350. The airline will pay $13.2 billion for the lot over an 11-year period through 2022, he said.

Even allowing for relatively small prepayments already made on the previous 142 orders, that still works out at less than $40 million per airplane.

The current 737-800 has a list price of $84 million.

Southwest's order gives huge boost to Boeing's 737 MAX program

DEAR I KNOW WANT YOU WANT TO SAY . BUT YOU ARE TRYING TO PLAY TENNIS WITH BADMINTON RACKET))
I wan to discus about aviation in Pakistan here..Just take any PAKISTANI airline ..the problem is same THEY DONT HAVE PLANE FOR OPERATION . And foreigner companies are getting business it is so Sade. Every Airline in Pakistan is over crowded , more expenses less profit . POLITICS , REFERENCE, INCOMPETENCY are the major problems . WHEN GAME WILL BE OVER I MEAN BUSINESS WILL IN THE HANDS OF FOREIGNER AIRLINES , THEN ALL THESE PEOPLES WILL DANCE ((

Sir do you think its just a matter of not having cash? Or is it more than just that? I reckon its a lot about politics too....I think PIA needs to hire an aviation consulting firm to see how they can better serve their own people, rather than playing around....