^ smhusain_1

Dear, I've nothing to Argue, as i mentioned Captain's Error remains there, but you can not Neglect ATC...
Secondly Circling Approach circuit is not Required to be flown at 800ft AGL as far as i know if you can get me a Reference i'll respect it... but as per my Limited Knowledge, it Depends on the Field and Circling Area, As my My Limited Knowledge,

First we need to understand PANS-OPS 4, For Circling Approaches,
Lowest Obstacle Clearance Altitude (OCA):
Aircraft category A B C D E
Minimum Visibility 1.9 km 2.8 km 3.7 km 4.6 km 6.5 km
Obstacle Clearance 295 ft 295 ft 394 ft 394 ft 492 ft
Bank Angle (degrees) 25 25 20 20 22
A circling approach is an extension of an instrument approach procedure which provides for visual circling of the aerodrome prior to landing. (ICAO Doc 8168: Procedures for Air Navigation Services - Aircraft Operations (PANS-OPS) Vol I - Flight Procedures)
A circling approach is the visual phase of an instrument approach to bring an aircraft into position for landing on a runway which is not suitably located for a straight-in approach. (JAR-OPS 1.435 (a) (1))

So please If you can Tell me the Reference for 800ft AGL.. Waiting... I would like to Correct my Knowledge.

Thank you for Kind Reply..

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JA

In the Jeppesen Appproach chart for Islamabad or whatever the airport is called now there will be a minima given to fly such an approach in the approach category section. 800 AGL is not a fixed value but the figure is generally near here.

^ Ok thank you so its PAN OPS 4 which are applicable if you see any Jespps plate you'll see at the Bottom of the plate to the left Half, telling you PAN OPS 4 ... so its not fixed, thank you.. and minimum Clearing altitude is 392ft or say 400ft for Category C like an aircraft for Airblue A321.. anything above is strictly considering the Obstacles but still when you turn Base you shouldn't be below 400ft AGL.

Regards,

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JA

What more do I want? well for starters, a neutral investigation and a fresh report as demanded by the courts would be nice, don't you think?

Let me state explicitly that I am not doubting the report of CAA and I too believe (as per report) that the Pilot's behavior was...well, unprofessional... to say the least. However, investigation reports do not (rather, should not) end at that. The purpose is not only to find someone to blame but to study the events that lead to the crash with the aim of improving standards, and thereby possibly preventing such incidents from happening in future.

For instance, what does the report says on the reasons of the Pilots behavior? Is there any study of how often senior pilots exhibit such behavior? did the crew go through a CRM training? if yes, did it yield the desired results (I am afraid not)? Was the training lacking? was the material inadequate? or are our cultural norms so strong that such a training will have little effect? And what ought to be the solution for such behavior will not be limited to only this crew (or for that matter this airline and this industry).

Secondly, what are the procedures for ATC communications? Are they adequate or need to be upgraded/improved? If the radar is showing the pilot going astray while he still claims he can "see the runway", does ATC stop at that or tell him(pilot) that he is way off course, particularly when there are so many NFZs near Islamabad? A study of how often pilots tends to ignore ATC communications would be another starting point, and why?

There was a crash ( i don't recall the flight number off my head) in which the crew "forgot" to extend their flaps during takeoff. The NTSB report didn't just stop at blaming the crew but a thorough study, involving NASA experts, was made that resulted in upgrading different check lists with the aim of making them shorter, more logical, and less likely to be overlooked/missed.

One of the Requirement for Tower Controller is to Keep the Aircraft in sight if they clear them for a Visual Approach, as soon as they Tower looses it they changed them over to Area. In this Case ISB RADAR asked tower to give him aircraft back but tower didn't.. NO more arguments. thank you..

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JA

I don't recall seeing any pics of the tail of the A321 anywhere. Usually the tail is always identifiable and intact. Was the tail found?

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Moin Abbasi

The tail section of AirBlue Airbus A321 was found buried in a muddy area under burnt/broken trees. That area was identified/pinpointed on July 30. The area was difficult to reach and search teams with the help of cutting tools managed to recover FDR and CVR from the tail section on July 31 i.e. around 72 hours after the crash.

So, I think due to difficult location or tail hidden by mud/trees, news media was not able to photograph tail section.


AirBlue Airbus A321 Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) and Flight Data Recorder (FDR) recovered from aircraft's tail section on July 31, 2010.

Abbas

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A neutral body will in no way help contribute towards the length of the report by addressing the issues you wish to see addressed. If foul play was suspected, or the sequence of events was miscontrued in some way to make it seem like something it wasn't, then a neutral body would have been necessary, but in this situation, its clear as day what happened.

What you have seen is purely an investigation report, where they have told you what has happened, nothing more. The relevant bodies can now go about dissecting each and every event, figure out why the environment on the flight deck was so hostile etc etc, and present a cause-effect report type of thing, and THEN, bring about any changes, if any are needed..

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Very rightly highlighted. This report only tells us (to some extent) what happened. It is silent on 'why it happened' aspect. I was reading an Airbus article on 'Circling Approach' in thier safety magazine (I would have copied it here for members, but unable to 'cut and paste' the article out of an eighty page PDF document). Amazingly all the donts of a circle to land procedure which have been highlighted in boxes in the article, had been commited by the accident crew.

I am personally at loss on few of the capt's actions (who had spent a life time flying into Islamabad airport) e.g insisting on a right hand pattern knowing fully well that none existed and the mention about khanpur dam etc which seems strange. Then his (reported) inability to use the heading control (most frequently used control) on the FCU panel. all these factors point to some bahevioural aspects of the crew actions which the report did not find important to dig deep or were simply unable to.
Sad

Not related to ED crash but IFALPA has a reaction on the crash report about Spanair flight crash

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Raihan Shahzad
VATSIM - West Asia - Pakistan vACC/vARTCC (S1)


EY-B77W, A345, A320, A319, GF-L1011, B732, A332, A320, A319, KU-A343, AB6, A310, A320, PK-B707/720, B733, AB4, A310

As a former pilot, I never tried to decipher how to arrive at the circling altitude minima figure but consulted the particular airport Jeppesen chart for that. You maybe right about the factors involved in getting that altitude, but if the pilot strays from the dimensional confines of the circling approach in terms of distance from the runway, it is not ATC's problem if it loses sight of the aircraft. The tower controller couldn't have done more neither the radar. The pilot is supposed to execute a missed approach climbing towards the centre of the runway anytime he loses contact with the runway. Was this done?

The tower is static while the aircraft is doing all the moving. The tower can only advise the aircraft and request the pilot's intentions when in doubt. The tower has committed no grave error in clearing an aircraft to fly a visual approach. No brains are required to remember that the aircraft should not bust its already critical low altitude, circling minimums for that particular airfield or go afar from the runway environment. In both cases, contact with the runway may be lost due to poor visibility, which happened.

We are merely presenting our different perspectives in a public forum. There is no argument and you may choose to agree/disagree.

Old news report video grab that I think it shows shattered port-side wing of AirBlue Airbus A321-231 (AP-BJB) that crashed into Margalla Hills on July 28, 2010. Broken letters 'JB' of registration AP-BJB can be seen.

Following photo taken on June 16, 2006, shows port-side wing of the ill-fated aircraft with registration AP-BJB.

Click here to see large photo. (Photo by Ali Mujtaba)

Abbas

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Plane crash: Fresh AirBlue probe on cards

By Shaheryar Mirza

Published: May 18, 2012

KARACHI: A memorandum of understanding will be signed in the next ten days between the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) and the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) to commence a new investigation into the AirBlue crash that killed 146 passengers in July 2010, a reliable source in the CAA headquarters told The Express Tribune.

The Peshawar High Court ordered the government in January to constitute a new board to investigate the crash under domestic and international laws. The federal government has complied with the orders and the ICAO has agreed to come to the country to begin the investigation despite having just done an audit of the CAA in 2011.

The team of international experts will work together with a team of local civil aviation experts to conduct an audit of the CAA’s safety and security standards.

ICAO audits include a pre-audit, on-site, and post-audit phase. During this the CAA will be comprehensively screened on security and safety of planes, airworthiness, equipment use and every other element that goes into running the CAA.

The last safety audit that was taken in 2011 by the ICAO ranked the CAA at an impressive number ten out of a hundred countries with an eighty-nine percent rating. It is likely that the CAA’s rating will not fall after the following audit, the source said.

Source: tribune.com.pk

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