PIA ATR 42-500 (AP-BHO) Slips off at Lahore Airport

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SM
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Post by SM » Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:26 am

Hi All,

More information from various sources on the incident:

1) Very shortly after touching down in a high gusting wind the aircraft veered off the runway (36R/18L), crossed a 1000' rough grassy patch,
a drainage ditch, and a parallel runway before stopping in a second grassy patch at the parallel runway's edge (36L/18R).

2) F/O was on the controls during this leg of the flight and while he met minimum requirements, he is not considered one of the most proficient of the batch.

3) Role of the captain in this incident (and any corrective measures he took) is unclear.

4) All emergency exits were utilized to avoid damage from any potential post crash fire as aircraft still had 30 minutes of holding fuel and fuel to its alternate destination. By the grace of almighty, there was no post crash fire; otherwise the damage would have been incomprehensible.

Please also note that three years ago, in July 2006, PK-688 (same call sign but different aircraft type -- Fokker F27 AP-BAL) crashed in Multan while taking off for the same route and everyone on-board perished.

As a lesson from this event and the one that happened three years ago, PIA must improve its training, safety, and hiring standards.

Regards,
SM


Riddle 792
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Post by Riddle 792 » Mon Jun 01, 2009 2:00 am

simple.... stop hiring mamma, chaca, mummy, daddy, sifarshis and privatize this clown.........


enough of tax payers billions have been wasted on PIA where less than 10% of whole population gets the benefit...

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Abbas Ali
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Post by Abbas Ali » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:57 am

Probe Into The Incident Ordered: PIA Spokesman

LAHORE: Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) has ordered an inquiry into Saturday’s crash landing of the 48-seater PIA turboprop aircraft ATR 42-500 at Allama Iqbal International Airport, a spokesman told ‘The News’.

The aircraft skid off the runway, raced another 2,000 feet or so while rubbing its nose in dirt slid across a two feet deep drainage ditch, and finally came to a shockingly rude abrupt stop on the left edge of the parallel runway 36L.

Fortunately, no passenger or crew member received any injury except the pilots reportedly suffering from bruised egos. Welcome to the exciting landing of PK-688 flight from Multan to Lahore at around 7:30PM Saturday evening, whose details the PIA authorities very conveniently forgot to share with the general public and the media.

Upon contact, the PIA spokesman sounded elated about the fact that nobody had been hurt but did not have a cogent response when asked why PIA had not volunteered the details of the incident to general public and media, as would be expected of any responsible professional corporation. He said however that an official inquiry had been ordered into the incident to determine the cause of the accident and whether it was due to equipment failure or human error.

According to reliable sources, it appears a case of equipment failure. The aircraft bearing registration AP-BHO was being flown by Capt. Torab and First Officer Asim Aziz. According to initial reports, the aircraft’s nose, left gear and the fuselage have been heavily damaged.

While the PIA authorities may be feeling a little hot behind the collar, the landing however was described in two words by one truly happy teenaged traveler who talking to ‘The News’ described it as “really cool”. If earlier, the PIA advertising mantra was ‘great people to fly with’, the undisclosed Saturday landing proved that they are ‘even greater to land with’.

Source: The News
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Post by Raza_Ali » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:15 am

From the facts described so far seems like a human error and as SM pointed out that it was being flown by an incompetent pilot, then I guess no one will ever know what will be the outcome of such investigation.

Pakistan needs to have an Organization like NTSB of USA. As someone pointed out that PIA is home to lots of Safarshis, which no doubt will also be in the ranks of pilots, then perhaps its the time to rid this organization of Sifarshis no matter whether they are janitors or Captains in PIA

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Post by SM » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:33 am

baberblues wrote:Oh dear is it going to cost alot, will the pilot be suspended?
Hi Babeblues,

I am not sure of the exact costs for this repair, but as a pure "guesstimate", the repairs may easily exceed US$0.5 million (or PKR 4 crores) since most of the undercarriage, landing gear, avionics antennas, braking system, and potentially some other stuff (like parts of the hydraulic system, any damage props etc) will have to replaced. A trained A&P mechanic rated on AT5 type can tell us more.

Though insurance may cover bulk of this; more importantly, now that this machine is no longer NDH (no damage history), its resale value will go dramatically down. So from an accounting perspective, their is a direct loss in PIA's net assets in hand; not to mention, the loss of revenue while this machine is grounded for repairs.

Regards,
SM

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Abbas Ali
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Post by Abbas Ali » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:38 am

From photos, AP-BHO looks repairable.

Apparently they will need to change landing gear, landing gear doors and repair fuselage belly skin. Fortunately, from photos it looks like fuselage did not get creased and did not suffer any serious damage. Engine prop blades look undamaged and alright in photos. Close-up shots can reveal whether engine prop blades suffered any damage or not.

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Amaad Lone
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Post by Amaad Lone » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:52 am

Though insurance may cover bulk of this; more importantly, now that this machine is no longer NDH (no damage history), its resale value will go dramatically down. So from an accounting perspective, their is a direct loss in PIA's net assets in hand; not to mention, the loss of revenue while this machine is grounded for repairs.
A lot of times insurance companies do not cover pilot error claims. That is why airlines try to cover up pilot error losses.

As for the resale value of the ATR42, well judging from past experiances, by the time PIA replaced aircraft, most of them have no re-sale value, only scrap value.

Yes loss of revenue while the aircraft is grounded is going to be the main loss.

Maybe PIA needs to re-evaluate the procedure of hiring 200 hour CPL rookies.
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SM
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Post by SM » Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:06 pm

Abbas Ali wrote:From photos, AP-BHO looks repairable.

Apparently they will need to change landing gear, landing gear doors and repair fuselage belly skin. Fortunately, from photos it looks like fuselage did not get creased and did not suffer any serious damage. Engine prop blades look undamaged and alright in photos. Close-up shots can reveal whether engine prop blades suffered any damage or not.

Abbas
Hi Abbas,

Though the props visually look ok, close examination may reveal a different story. More importantly though, I am worried about debris ingestion via the engine's air intakes as the engine cores were operating during the incident.

A stone, piece of ground lighting, or any other object being sucked via air intakes can cause some serious damage to the turbine's compressor assembly that can be costly to repair. So we have to leave all this to A&Ps of PIA Engineering (and potentially ATR) who will determine final repair needs.

Regards,
SM

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Abbas Ali
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Post by Abbas Ali » Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:31 pm

SM wrote:More importantly though, I am worried about debris ingestion via the engine's air intakes as the engine cores were operating during the incident.
Good point! And it certainly can increase total repair cost for the aircraft.
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Post by Captain Zaidi » Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:42 pm

I guess we should wait for the investigation report by SIB to see what exactly happened rather than making opinions on media reports such as the one which said the pilot landed in tail wind n all.The aircraft looks repairable though.I guess the jumbo that belly landed in the 80s got back in business too right Abbass?Btw this new article appearing in the news is just a poor show by the reporter.He is going personal on PIA and refers to the 'pilot's bruised ego'...srsly he named the crew and with this bruised ego comment has attacked both the pilots without even knowing what the reason for the incident might be and even having no knowledge of the pilots themselves...there can be a pilot error no doubt but you cant make such irresponsible comments on print media.Let's see what the investigation reveals

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Abbas Ali
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Post by Abbas Ali » Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:51 pm

Captain Zaidi wrote:I guess the jumbo that belly landed in the 80s got back in business too right Abbass?
Yes, it was repaired and returned to service. The aircraft was Boeing 747-282B (AP-AYW) operating Karachi to Islamabad flight PK-300 on February 4, 1986 when it made belly landing at Islamabad Airport. AP-AYW served PIA for 29 years from 1976 to 2005.

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AP-AYW minutes after making belly landing at Islamabad International Airport on February 4, 1986.
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Raza_Ali
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Post by Raza_Ali » Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:20 pm

I heard somewhere that the 80's Jumbo belly landing at Islamabad was because the pilot had forgotten to lower the landing gears. Is it true or just a speculation

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Post by TAILWIND » Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:44 pm

It give me immense pleasure to find that so many air crash experts are memebers of this forum.
bernyjee wrote:Cockpit crew is always supposed to follow the instructions given by the control tower.
Well its not ALWAYS.. certain instructions are informative and pilot can act as per his judgement. If the wind direction is withinn the tail or cross wind limits of the aircraft, the pilot may elect to land from a direction other than one specified by the controller if so permitted.
IF control tower told cockpit crew to not land aircraft in a specific direction (as suggested by some posters here) due to wind speed AND cockpit crew acted against that order, then cockpit crew should be held responsible and their career to be ended.

Aircraft Captain bears most responsibility in this case.
Dont jump the gun. One does not hold people guilty less that 48 hrs after an accident not even NTSB..

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Abbas Ali
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Post by Abbas Ali » Mon Jun 01, 2009 5:01 pm

Raza_Ali wrote:I heard somewhere that the 80's Jumbo belly landing at Islamabad was because the pilot had forgotten to lower the landing gears. Is it true or just a speculation
In PIA Boeing 747 belly landing incident, landing checklist was not completed by crew and they forgot to lower the landing gear. Crew also ignored warning from aircraft's Ground Proximity Warning System (GPWS) when they lowered flaps to landing position with retracted landing gear. Complete details why crew ignored GPWS warning and exactly how this incident happened can be found in chapter 33 titled 'A Belly Landing and Unconventional Office Work' of book 'Come Fly With Me: Jets' authored by Capt. Johnny Sadiq.

Anyone interested in buying a copy of this book can find details in following topic:

Topic: ‘Come Fly With Me’ – book by Capt. Johnny Sadiq published

Abbas
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Post by nopy99 » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:25 pm

Amaad Lone wrote:
As for the resale value of the ATR42, well judging from past experiances, by the time PIA replaced aircraft, most of them have no re-sale value, only scrap value.
Agree with this. Look at the rest of the fleet, PIA clearly has a policy of flogging the assets for as long as possible.